Thursday, May 14, 2009

If You Haven't Seen the Season Five Finale, Don't Read Any of This

Hello my dear friends -

I realized less than a half-hour into "The Incident" that my final Season Five post is going to take me a loooong time to pull together -- as in, more than a week. I may divide it into two parts (one for each hour)... I'm just not sure right now.

In the meantime, I'm breaking with tradition and have decided to share a few of my initial, not very well rationalized thoughts with you on this depressing Morning After. Some of you who've been with me for a while may recall that the only other time I've ever done this is when I thought Locke had been shot by Ben at the Skeleton Pit and I was positive he'd been killed. Therefore, my motivation for writing today is probably pretty transparent: I'm extremely upset that Locke appears to be dead again.

So here are my knee-jerk responses to "The Incident," with a full recap and analysis to follow... eventually.

- Sometimes I think about this show so much that I don't see things that are actually kind of obvious. Which is why it was helpful that my husband was watching along with me. During the first scene... the one with the man we came to learn was Jacob (dressed in white) and the other guy (dressed in black), my husband said, "This is just like Dogma." And I replied, "What?" [For those of you who have never seen it, Dogma is a movie by Kevin Smith (Clerks).]

"You know, in Dogma there were those two angels [Ben Affleck and Matt Damon]. That's what these guys are. One is sympathetic to humans, the other's the Angel of Death or something."

My better half didn't get the movie comparison exactly right, but he did start me thinking about Jacob and the Anti-Jacob guy (referring to him as A-J for now) in this context. I have always believed that, despite the fact that the show has had several very obvious religious undertones since the beginning, it would never be "in-your-face religious" because that might alienate a lot of its viewers. So I disagree with my husband that Jacob and A-J are angels, or, should I say, that the show will ever explicitly reveal them to be angels. Nor do I think we'll find out that A-J's name is Esau (Jacob's brother in the Bible - thanks to reader JP for the link). In fact, I'm not sure we'll ever learn precisely what those two are, but I don't think it's all that important. I think what we're meant to take away is that Jacob is a force for light (good) on the Island, and A-J is a force for the dark side (evil). If people want to believe they're characters from the Bible or angels or whatever, so be it, but the show probably won't ever plainly spell it out for us.

Jacob has been luring people to the Island for years to test out his theories that humans are inherently good, whereas A-J's just like, "Humans suck." Richard was probably on the Black Rock and Jacob thought he was a cool guy and chose to freeze him at his current age, and Richard’s been ageless and working for Jacob ever since.

Oh, and the statue? Not Anubis. Not Taweret. According to reader TC, it's Sobek.


- Bram and Ilana surprisingly do appear to be "good," and are on Jacob’s side. There goes my New Dharma theory. They're probably some of the original Hostiles or descendants of them or something. So does that mean Widmore is aligned with baddie A-J, as Bram said that Miles should NOT go on Widmore’s mission? I'm finding it hard to believe that Widmore would knowingly cooperate with such an evil character, but I'm keeping my mind open at this point. I also have no idea why Ilana was all messed up and in the hospital when Jacob visited her and asked her to help him. But since part of that mission must have been to get Sayid back to the Island, we can assume that Jacob thought it was important that all of the 815ers return. And I'm sure we'll get an Ilana flashback next season to fill in the story about her hospital stay.

- Let me now get the thing I don't really want to talk about out of the way: yes, I was actually physically nauseous when Locke's body rolled out of the crate, and I woke up this morning all depressed that it was Thursday and the episode hadn't been a dream. BUT -- I still have hope that we'll see Real Locke again. More on that later, but for now, my biggest point of confusion about the finale is that I don't understand how there could be TWO Locke bodies.

My belief is that Locke was Real Locke up until Ben strangled him off-Island and he was placed in the coffin at Hoffs-Drawler. Otherwise, when he was running around in the real world trying to convince the others to come back, he wouldn’t have cared to stop and see Walt or Helen’s grave, right? Plus, he just seemed like Real Locke during "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham." But somewhere along the way there must have been a SECOND Locke Body for A-J to possess. We saw clones in the Orchid video with the bunnies before... so maybe that’s what did it -- when Locke turned the wheel a Locke clone spun off? But maybe A-J couldn't possess the second body, which had perhaps always remains somewhere on the Island around the Orchid station, until Original Locke was dead? [I should admit how torn I am about the show right now because I always swore I would stop watching if there were either clones or evil twins. Oops.]

One way or the other, A-J possesses a version of Locke's body. In my last post I wrote about the vicious cycle of Locke telling Richard to tell Other Locke (the one time-traveling and shot by Ethan in the jungle) that he had to die in order to get all of his people back. I assumed that Locke had Richard tell Other Locke that just because that's what he'd previously heard -- it was another "compass-like" loop where it's impossible to figure out with whom the "Locke has to die" idea originated.

But NOW we know that it wasn't Real Locke who was instructing Richard. It was A-J in Locke's form, and he would of course NEED Locke to die in order for his entire plan to work. A plan which consisted of possessing Locke's body, scaring the crap out of Ben when Locke appeared to be resurrected, and then manipulating Ben into killing Jacob. That's the loophole... A-J cannot kill Jacob himself, but someone else can.

Speaking of this "loophole" business, it reminded me of Widmore and Ben's exchange about "the rules." Are we ever going to learn the rules that those two are/were bound by?

- One more thing about Jacob -- after that first flashback with Kate as a child (SO happy they gave us another shot of the NKOTB lunchbox), I assumed that we'd see Jacob visiting all of the other 815ers as children or at least pre-crash. But his interactions with Sayid and Hurley seemed to be only pre-Ajira 316. So I'm not convinced that Jacob "chose" everyone to be on the original flight, though that did seem to be what was implied (and he did physically touch all of them, I double-checked). At least we finally know who put the bug in Hurley's ear about Ajira, though. (The contents of the guitar case, however, remain a mystery.)

- Finally, here's the translation of what Richard answered to Ilana (in Latin) when she asked, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

"He who will protect/save us all."


Now a few thoughts about the 1977 events:

- I don’t believe the blast killed any of the main characters, possibly even including Juliet. But I also don’t think it erased their pasts like Jack and Faraday assumed it would. Their pasts are their pasts... but, as I've said in other posts, perhaps Flight 815 will now be different for their future versions. As for the main characters, I'm assuming they will all most likely flash to 2008 (the end "Lost screen" was white, just like how the sky turned white during time-jumps...), where "the war" is now beginning. The question is, who else will be on Evil Locke’s side? Will all the Hostiles just blindly follow him? When will Ben catch on? I'm assuming very soon, since Richard now knows the truth.

- I HATED how Jack and Sawyer and Kate and Juliet were changing their minds and making important decisions based on their freaking love lives. Awful. All while poor Sayid is bleeding out. In my notepad I wrote, "The Love Quadrangle Is Responsible for Blowing Up the Island."

- How sad is it that the best part of this Lost finale for me was seeing Vincent for a few seconds? As soon as I heard his bark, both of my arms were in the air and I shouted, "Yes! YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!"


A few last words:

- Yes, I admit to being in complete and utter denial about Locke, but I REALLY don’t believe that they would have such a great character’s story arc end with Ben killing him. That would mean that Locke's destiny was to inadvertently help the BAD guys win!?! NEVER! Therefore, I still have hope that Locke will live again in his original form. Maybe if Des goes back and changes something from 2004, that can happen. Further, I really don't think the creative team behind the show wants to deal with millions of angry Locke fans staging sit-ins and protests (which I will be spearheading, naturally) if they choose to end the series with Terry O'Quinn playing a dastardly Agent of Evil that everyone despises. So I'm holding tight to my vision of Locke living out the rest of his days hunting boar, eating mangoes and randomly throwing knives all around the Island as the sun sets over the horizon. And... scene.

- My #1 favorite line was when Rose said, "Oh, hell no!" when Sawyer, Kate and Juliet showed up on the beach. Second favorite line was when the guy discharging Hurley from prison listed off his possessions: "... and one fruit roll-up."


There you have it. I'm looking forward to hearing all of your thoughts and reactions... but please don't leave comments like, "I can't believe you didn't mention Phil's death!" or "How could you not have mentioned Chang's arm!?!?" and whatnot. My "real" post is still coming... the above was not meant to be all-encompassing by any means. I still need proper time to mourn before I can fully process the entire two hours, so bear with me.

- e

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
Scott Furrow said...

Thanks for the post. I spent the night deciding that I need to watch all of season 5 again this week. And I may have to break down and get a Comic-com ticket and a Dharma jumpsuit just to do something for the 8 months...

Anonymous said...

OMG you are fast! I just finished watching the finale on acb.com. I missed the episode due to work. I had also just finished reading last weeks post and the live chat you all had. Then this pops up. Your "Timing" is incredible. Are you Jacob? Am I caught in a timeloop? Oh crap I am wearing a red shirt! Tell my girlfriend I love ...

helkatmat said...

Except for reading the ABC cast list I was unspoiled for this episode. When Frank was allowed to look into the Ajira box, at that moment I thought it would be Locke in there. I suppose because I just couldn't reconcile the resurrected Locke with "our" Locke. Still it was quite a shock to see him in the end. I'm hoping that since Jacob literally touched the 7 pivotal characters of LOST (Locke included) that they will turn out to be similar to the horcruxes in Harry Potter, but their fragmented part's purpose will be to resurrect good instead of evil. That said, I still fear for Sayid. As in HP good just has to overcome evil, right?!!

Anonymous said...

Thanks so much for posting your initial thoughts so soon! Absolutely Brill!
I was really intrigued to know your thoughts about Locke.
The 'new' Locke wasnt actually him! YAAAAY!
BUUUUT the 'real' Locke is dead. BOOOOO!
I am looking forward to your analysis of the whole finale! Take your time as good things come to those who wait!

Nick said...

I thought it was a decent finale, but I agree about the love quadrangle stuff.

Those saying "they already killed off Jacob?!" are forgetting that dead people seem to find their way back on the show. Season 6 will give us plenty of insight into the history of the island. The Black Rock will make its way to the shore. Captain Hanso will be aboard.

What some people don't seem to realize is that if they keep throwing crazy curveballs at us, it won't make sense. At some point they have to wrap up the story and stop changing course midstream. I think that's what we're seeing here - everyone will be reunited thanks to "the incident," and the war for the island will be ON from there. Nothing will be as shocking as the Season 3 finale, but it will still be plenty entertaining to watch.

Long Live Locke!

m1ke said...

Jacob is obviously not a golfer.

Anonymous said...

e- I refused to fall asleep last night after turning in for bed because I was so scared of what I'd dream about Locke during the night. Indeed, after falling asleep I had nightmares all night long about Bad Twin Locke's eeeevil-ness. Thus, I, too, absolutely believe that the awesomeness of Terry O'Quinn's Good Twin Locke must be redeemed. (After all, doesn't that seem to be one of the major plot points of this series?)

Although the nine-month wait will leave me in mourning, the anticipation of what is sure to be an absolutely spectacular series-ending season will be well worth it!

I look forward to your two-part recap.

Rebecca

Sarah Eliza @ devastateboredom said...

Do you not think that the "second Locke body" could not just be a manifestation of the smoke monster / A-J, in the same manner as Alex appearing to Ben even though her real body is no doubt rotting in the ground? She even interacted with Ben physically, grabbing him by the neck, so it seems plausible to me that there could be a Locke doppelganger without having to involve clones and what not...

Great observations etc -- I was right on the same page with you when you were exasperated at the love triangle drama... you'd think they'd be slightly more aware that they're dealing with a HYDROGEN BOMB for pity's sake... grrrr.

Josh R said...

Hey e

Love the recap. I was thinking that the writers may make Terry play both the good guy and the bad guy as in bring real Locke back.

Also you reminded me of a Lost joke from a Kevin smith movie. If you have seen Zack and Miri make a porno then you will know what joke I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?&next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DAFWOecnwhQM

However its a little rude.

erinw said...

Great blog, can't wait to read more! It's gratifying to see how much I agree with your take on things! Not quite sure about the Locke copied body; I presumed that Smokey was able to copy Locke's body when the body arrived on the island, and he chose Locke in advance because he felt that Ben could be goaded by "Locke" into murdering Jacob. I hope you're right that we'll be able to see Real Locke alive and well in 2008... Thanks again for sharing your skills!

Gillian said...

Great first thoughts! I'm very excited about the clone prospect, since that would give us a chance to get our Locke back at some point. My only problem is that zombie Locke and dead Locke were both wearing the suit he wore in the coffin, right? So the cloning must have taken place after he turned the donkey wheel. I'm still hoping that he's a clone though, since that's a more palatable option than an evil Locke.

DetectiveFork said...

My first thought upon seeing Locke's body roll out of the box was, "Oh, crap!" My second was, "Poor Erika!"

I get the feeling that Evil Locke is a Smokey construct, but perhaps he's something more. I suspect that the real Locke's soul is still in there somewhere. For one thing, a lot of his conversations on the Ajira 316 beach seemed genuine, not just those of an imposter.

I was reminded today of that dream Claire had in Season 1 in which she saw Locke with one black eye and one white eye. That suggests to me that Locke is connected to both sides, not just the dark side. Perhaps Locke will have an opportunity to reaasert his will and function as a way to unite Jacob and A-J into one being in harmony with the Island.

As it stands, it seems like Locke was manipulated from Day 1 by A-J and died a pathetic, broken, failure of a man. I can't believe that the writers would leave it at that. I think what's actually happened is that Locke has obtained what he really wanted - to become one with the Island - and he literally had to shed his old self to do so. But I think he still has a battle ahead of him.

Acharaisthekey said...

I thought the show wrapped up everything from the past very nicely...with or without the love quad stuff...WHATEVER HAPPENED, HAPPENED. The show, with Miles stating that Jack may actually be causing the INCIDENT was awesome and complete closure for me...the show finally had its SECOND BEST ClIFF hanger, and proved that DEAD IS DEAD!! We also have our two sides DEFINED..Jacob v Anti-Jacob...the sides will come into play next year and boom...LOST!

I loved the finale...and it was as entertaining of an episode as they've had!!!

Gbenga said...

Thanks for the post. Didn't think you would post anything but with the whole "finding what's in the crate situation" I figured I check. I kinda wished it still answered the question of if things can change or not. oh well!

brant said...

As always, this episode begs a couple more viewings... Nice post, though! Looking forward to the "real" one... after your grieving process, that is... :P

Lula! said...

Thanks for the "precap" to the recap. Looking forward to your official post...

p.s. My favorite line in the episode? Heck, in the entire 5 years? "We're retired." Rock on, Bernard.

Katie Kat said...

I was thinking of you when Locke's body rolled out of that box! I just don't see HOW they can have him really be REALLY dead, but we'll have to see. HANG IN THERE E!!!!!

It honestly took me awhile to realize what was going on at the end... but I think we all at least SUSPECTED Locke wasn't really Locke after he was resurrected. Anyway, I think Not Locke (that's the name I'm calling him anyhow) is a manifestation of Smokey, just like Yemi was for Eko. And maybe Claire and Christian are as well. Maybe they are ALL manifestations of Smokey and Not Locke is the physical embodiment of Smokey. I'm not sure how that all works out, but there it is.

Also, I think Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve! They looked very happy in the jungle, and (I know this is silly) but they are black and white and the skeletons were holding black and white rocks! Just a thought.

LisaC said...

If Jacob is good, why did he let Nadia die? That scene was just horrific...
The love quadrangle thing made no sense... why did Jack feel he had to say to Sawyer " I had her."? and Juliet, poor thing, just wanted to get away from the quadrangle herself...
I liked that Sawyer yelled at Jack that he had a life here... but why the beating? Uncalled for.
It is going to be a long 9 months...

Mike Carrigan said...

I don't think the bomb was detonated. I think they just ended the show with a white screen to make us think that. They even cut back to Juliette after it was all done and showed her crawling around in the hole for a few seconds. Did anyone else see this? Any thoughts at all?

Burgertime said...

I think the most important lines in the finale are those at the beginning and the end. Namely where Jacob says, "here they come". I think Jacob had everything setup in place for A-J knowing he would find the loophole. What A-J didn't expect was that the Jack and company would change the past...thus creating a new loophole...but this time for Locke and Jacob.

Anonymous said...

I've always assumed that it was Smokey taking the form of the corpses that were on the island -- Remi, Alex, Christian... but now that Locke's body is seemingly inhabited by "A-J", I wonder if we could assume that all of those apparition sightings were actually him, or if he and Smokey are one in the same.

I also now think that perhaps there was more that happened below ground that we didn't see when Smokey pulled Locke down underground (in Season 1?)

Anonymous said...

In the words of Jack from the finale -- "I know [Locke], and if I were you, I wouldn't give up him"

e said...

Mike Carrigan -

Hmm, maybe your Tivo cut off or something, but yes, Juliet was shown in the hole alive... but then she took a rock and banged on the bomb eight times until it went off, and then that's when it faded to white. The bomb definitely went off.

Burgertime - I like the idea that Jacob foresaw what would happen and had a plan of his own, I think you're right.

Regarding the comments about Smokey - Yes, definitely possible that A-J and not Smokey was the one who possessed all of those other people (Yemi, Claire, Christian, Alex, etc). However, if that's the case, it just seems like he would take their bodies and not create a SECOND instance of them. That what seems different about the Locke situation -- there are clearly TWO Locke bodies.

OK, now I have to stop thinking about this for a little bit!

- e

Frank L said...

I don't think you have to worry about evil twins or clones...

WAIT HOLY COW THAT BOOK WAS CALLED "BAD TWIN" WTF!!!!

okay back to non epiphany writing-

I think Bocaj (what I call the evil Jacob Counterpart) was trapped in Jacob's cabin and was let out post the circle breaking. So one of two things seems likely:

1.) As someone mentioned just because we haven't seen Christian's body doesn't mean it still isn't out there-so it could be that Bacoj can just imitate people-or dead people anyway; or

2.) Bacoj's power was limited by the circle, so he need a host body like Christian's to work with originally, but now post circle he can do his full super power stuff. Now he doesn't need the help.

Plus it sorta goes with some othe duality between Jacob and Bacoj (one a healer siding with life and the other working with the dead).

Or, at least that's how I'm going to write it... :-) Another great Season E!

Anonymous said...

WOW! Your recap was so quick! Really appreciate it! Thank you!
I didnt find the season 5 finale as intense as season 4 or 3. However, its given literally no clue as to whats coming up next and yet every indication that it's gonna be brilliant.
Looking forward to your full recap e!

rosered2318 said...

Maybe we will get doubly lucky; the real Locke will come back to life and ESE!Locke (prly Smokey) will continue in his form, so that way we get Terry O'Quinn x 2?

Tracy said...

e, I immediately knew you'd be upset about Locke when I watched the show! I think, as it's always been with "Lost", that there is more than what appears on the surface. I just hate having to wait 7 months to find out what it is. I also have a hard time believing that it was something as simple as "love" that caused Jack and Juliet to do what they did. I'm not sure about Jack (he's a guy so it could be true *VBG*), but in Juliet's case I think she always knew what she had to do and only needed to manipulate Sawyer in order to make that possible. Remember, she knew Latin. I don't think that she learned to speak it in the few years she was on the island, and maybe I'm wrong about this but we haven't heard Ben speak it, have we? I'm looking forward to your remaining thoughts!

PK said...

I have to wonder if A-J really was impersonating Locke...or if maybe somehow A-J controls/speaks through Smokey and Smokey can take on multiple forms as long as the form he is taking on is dead. Then, there wouldn't really be any evil twins or clones, just Smokey taking on the form of the dead like he did for Alex.

William said...

Reading your blogs are the highlight of my week. I agree with almost every opinion you have. Too bad for me, you're already married. I couldn't sleep after watching the finally last night. I had to watch the Idol episode that I recorded while LOST was on just to calm down. I can't believe that the real Locke will stay dead. I'm looking forward to your full blog about the episode.
p.s. I love the comments attached to the pics and the song lyrics also.

Anonymous said...

I think a good name for the Non Locke guy would be... well... Non-Locke!

I also think now that Jacob is dead John Locke will resurect right before Richard's and everyone else's eyes and assume Jacob's position with full knowledge of everything that has happened. They can not have been prepping us for John Locke to be the leader only to have his dead corpse flop out onto the sand and that being his end. No way!

Don't worry E... Locke will be back and better than ever. Remeber what Jack said to Richard in the Tunnels.... "I wouldn't give up on him."

"They're coming" will prove to be the rest of the 815ers coming back to join Locke's army and fight the good fight.

Can you imagine this... Real Locke versus Non-Locke in a one on one epic Harry/Voldemort type battle for the island and the souls of everyone on it? Yes, baby, yes!

Clearsight said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LostFan said...

I've been saying it since Dead is Dead. The Locke that's been walking around after getting back to the island is smokey. TPTB name the shows for a reason. So, Dead IS Dead. :-(

Anonymous said...

Great recap as always! Thank you!

BUT
Hold on im confused...
If A-J Locke is smokey, then surely A-J Locke would know what Ben was talking about when Ben was talking about Alex being there when he was judged by smokey??? Do you get my drift?

LostFan said...

"BUT
Hold on im confused...
If A-J Locke is smokey, then surely A-J Locke would know what Ben was talking about when Ben was talking about Alex being there when he was judged by smokey??? Do you get my drift?"

"Smokey Locke" was playing dumb. He wasn't there...Only smokey and Ben were there.

Anonymous said...

Why does it have to be that Locke's dead body is possessed? Why can't it be that A-J can take the form of various people that are dead (Christian, Claire, Locke)? This would resolve your two dead Lockes issue.

Anonymous said...

love your commentary and was SO happy to see some so soon!!! :-)
however, as others have said, i dont think there are two Locke bodies. there is the real Locke (dead body in box) and A-J, who is a manifestation of smokey. it appears to me that smokey manifests WITHOUT a "inhabiting" a body, per se. think when Yemi comes to Eko (his body had been burned at that point, right?) ... or Kate's horse ... or Alex during Ben's judgement (who as someone said, was rotting in the ground at the point). i dont know, this requires some more thought!

Craig said...

I see a lot of people were thinking things similar to what I was: A-J (I started calling him Esau after I first saw him in that initial scene last night just because I like the idea of the rivalry, even though that's almost certainly not who they are.)seems to be able to appear as Locke. Why now and not before? Locke is on the island and is dead. Who else is on the island, dead, able to be seen by other people and giving instructions? Christian (the only one outside of the compass loop who told Locke he had to die), and Alex, who told Ben to do whatever Locke (who was actually A-J) said. Both of them seem suspect now. I wonder if we are going to see Locke(s) playing both sides in the final struggle. A-J controlling fake Locke and Jacob using/controlling or resurrecting the original Locke. After all right now, Locke lies in the shadow of the statue, and I still believe that he is the one who will save us all.

I don't think we saw clones in the Orchid station with the bunnies any more than we were seeing clones when adult Miles saw his infant self. One bunny was temporally shifted and had appeared in the time of the other one.

Personally, I think Miles was 100% right when he said they might be causing the incident. Everything that we know from when they arrived in 2004 (or from off-island info from 2004 or later) still happened, Chang lost an arm, Daniel got shot by his mother, Chang sent his wife and Miles away, Ben still grows up and becomes an Other. All of those still happened, but more importantly they all happened because of the interference of people from 815 or the frieghter. Ok, getting too much into stuff that you'll probably touch on in the main post, so I'll shut up.

But there's no way Locke's really gone forever.

BBKiddo said...

I'm so happy you posted so quickly. I was seriously worried for you.
So I think that A-J = smokey. Notice how his hair was sort of gray and curly like smoke? lol Okay I could be taking that too far. I also agree with some of the posters above. I think he needs the body nearby (like Miles does) to read the thoughts and play out the character, but he doesn't acutally posses the body, he transforms into a copy of it of sorts.

Anonymous said...

LostFan Said: <<"Smokey Locke" was playing dumb. He wasn't there...Only smokey and Ben were there.>>

So theres more than one Smokey? Is that what you mean? Which Smokey is good? Which Smokey is evil? I thought Smokey was just on one side. I still dont get it!? Sorry im such a dumbass!

JTKav said...

I agree with PK - the discussion about "cloning" is incorrect. The two rabbits in the Orchid Station video were not clones; they were the same rabbit. It was time travel - not cloning. Just like there were two Myles in Dharmaville in 1977 - baby Myles and adult Myles. The rabbit was an experiment in time travel, which was the explicit purpose of the Orchid Station. Obviously everyone agrees that "Dead Locke" was really a manifestation of Anti-Jacob. We've seen several dead characters on the Island: Christian, Eko's brother, Alex and now Locke. In every case, not only where they dead, but their dead body was on the Island. A-J "possessed" Locke for lack of a better term when the Ajira plane crashed on the Island. Up until Locke's death at Ben's hands, it was the good ol' John Locke. It would seem that A-J uses these dead characters to manipulate other characters into doing his will. Its not clear if Jacob did the same thing, or if his control was more subtle (the touching of each character and his reference to "sometimes it just needs a little push."). Either way, everyone on the show is a piece in a game of chess between J and A-J. Dark versus Light.

Katrin said...

Hi there,

e- I'll follow your example and just hammer this out right after watching. ;)

When I first saw Jacob and A-J and their relationship, Odin and Loki from Norse mythology came to my mind.

During the whole series, I always felt the smoke monster to be some sort of trickster figure (note that tricksters can be found in many mythologies all over the world). I just couldn't connect it to a special one. I feel that even more after seeing this season's finale.

Without thinking it through, I would say that A-J is this trickster figure, perhaps even some sort of Loki in this case.

Just some random thoughts leading to my conclusion as they were crossing my mind right after watching.

1. Loki is known to be a master of metamorphosis (as is the trickster).

2. Loki has three children. One of them being the world serpent Jörmungandr - this could be the smoke monster.
His daughter is Hel, who watches over the dead - this could be the reincarnation of Alex.
His third child is the wolf Fenrir, who is foretold to kill Odin, but will be killed in return - let's wait and see what will happen to Ben. ;)

3. Fenrir killing Odin is supposed to happen during Ragnarök, which "is a series of major events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures, the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world resurfaces anew and fertile, the surviving gods meet, and the world is repopulated by two human survivors." (quote from wikipedia: Ragnarök)

I have to admit that I was never too much into theorizing all that what is behind LOST. I really am just typing what I am thinking right now.
But after watching the season's finale today, it just made more sense to me. Can't wait to see the last season. :D

Happy waiting to you all out there!
Katrin

Anonymous said...

Thanks e! i was hoping that you would have posted your early thoughts on last nite's finale! I must say that this was my least favorite LOST finale...too much of the love quadrangle and not enough edge of your seat drama like the past finales.

I love the way the LOST writers tied in Jacob, Sobek, and Richard Alpert(Ra) in this episode. It's obvious that Jacob has been expecting A-J to show up...based on the opening scene, Jacob knew that eventually there would be a Jacob/A-J showdown and hopefully he had a darn good plan in place...maybe his sacrifice will bring good Locke back to save the world...or maybe Des will 'come out of the waters of chaos' like Sobek did to create a better world...one with good John Locke in it naturally!

p.s. I agree with you...my most favorite part of the episode was seeing Vincent! :)

Brad said...

Hi E - first, let me say thanks for all of the time, thought, and effort you put into LLL. Sorry about Locke in the box at the reveal, but we know we'll see him again...which leads me to my first of two thoughts:

1) If AJ/Esau found a loophole and was able to body invade a Locke (or create one), won't Jacob be able to do the same and body invade the current Locke body laying in the shadow of the statue? I don't want to perpetuate any more non-Locke Lockes....but that's my initial thought.

2) Don't discount the love quadrangle in regards to the overall theme of the show. What we are seeing is a display of the human condition - we all get caught up in our own emotions and act based on what we feel rather than what we think or know. Actually let's break it down even further to the three paradoxes of The Human Condition (as per Wikipedia) which may or may not give us even more insight into the final season:

- Our imaginations can take us anywhere dragging our physical bodies along.

- We are capable of the kindest, most noble things, but we are also capable of the most horrible and terrifying things.

- Humans hope for everlasting life, but are always inventing new ways to destroy each other.

Just a few quick thoughts....but I must say I truly enjoyed the finale and look forward to 2010!

-Brad

Tracee said...

I am mourning, too. I have a big hope that something can happen to bring him back, though. =)

I am worried that Jacob, while he appears to be good, is actually bad. you know how they like to make people appear like the good guys, and they really turn out bad.....Just like Frank said, the more you go on about how good you are, the worse you actually are.

AllisonR said...

LOL! Love the Dogma tie-in! I didn't notice the color of their clothes. Will have to watch again. I have kind of a different theory about who these two guys/beings are (and I think there's a third playing this game) but I have to let it "cook" some more in my brain....

I was very excited to see the Black Rock in this episode. Though seeing it on the horizon and having it wedged in the middle of dry land is a long journey, one I hope we find out more about. This morning I was hoping for more Black Rock coverage. Maybe in an ARG?

Looking forward to reading your full thoughts on this awesome episode!

adi* said...

Glad to see your post! After such a mindblowing finale I just couldn't also help but sharing my thoughts with everyone. And the Locke we know and love just can't be gone! Hang in there, next season will be here sooner than we think ^__^

DetectiveFork said...

E,

I think A-J and Smokey are one in the same.

Smokey did seem to have taken Christian's body. And Christian seems to exist as his own entity.

But did Smokey take Yemi's body, too? In any case, that Yemi made it clear to Eko that he was not really his brother.

Smokey likely didn't have Alex's body, but appeared as her in physical form.

Smokey might also appear as people who are not dead, such as Walt.

I just hope that when Season 6 starts, Smokey doesn't reveal that he has no more reason to appear as Locke and then Locke just disappears, leaving only one dead body. That would suck.

I highly doubt that there's a clone of Locke! I don't think the show would go there.

I think one of these ideas is more likely - Evil Locke has a solid physical existence that is a combination of Smokey and the real Locke's soul OR Locke's original body will somehow be revived, likely by Jacob, the only one it seems actually has that power (judging by the way we revived Locke after Locke fell from the window and in spite of the Dead is Dead mantra).

It could also be likely that Smokey will retain Locke's appearance and the real Locke is well and truly dead, but I don't think the writers will actually leave it at that. I have faith. ;-)

Kia said...

Hey e,

Do you think that there HAS to be a body? If AJ = Smokey then we may not need a body. We saw Smokey appear as many different people, for example, all of those people that Eko knew from Africa. Ben touched Alex and everything when Smokey appeared in her form...... I don't really think he needed an actual body.

BTW, you are AMAZING for getting this (partial)post up so fast!

Sara S. said...

-Thanks so much for the early post!
So I'm not sure if any similar ideas have been posted, but my friends and I collaborated to come up with some thoughts.

1. A.j. possibly Smokey? The black shirt in the beginning was a clue. Maybe he shape shifted into Locke Number 2. He could be like Christian and Alex.(very far fetched, but just a thought)

2. A much more plausible theory, the bomb caused infertility.

As I said, I really hope these haven't been said but I don't have the time to read the comments at work because I have an anti-Lost boss. We call him Widmore.

Kia said...

Sorry, Sarah Eliza @ devastateboredom, my page didn't load correctly, and I missed the fact that you had the exact same comment I did.

Ann said...

I cheered out loud too when we saw Vincent again. And I thought Rose was great. So despite the heavy stuff in this episode (I almost couldn't stand Sawyer's good-bye to Juliet), I just loved those lighter moments. Thanks for your quick post--looking forward to more later.

Ernie said...

What if A-J = Smokey?

I still don't know what I think of this finale. There were some awesome things and then some Ok things. I wonder if finally getting the answers we've always wanted isn't as satisfying as not knowing those answers.

We basically have the answer for what the island is ... its sort of a magical, Garden of Eden, where Jacob tests humanity's goodness. Is that a satisfying enough answer for everyone? I doubt we'll get much more detail that than.

David said...

"I don't speak destiny." I loved this episode. Though I can relate to anyone who didn't like it because they are Locke or Juliet fans. I still hate that stupid episode with the scene at Jin's grave when we found out he was dead. Just mean.

Anonymous said...

Might be a good idea to take a look at the people on the Ajira flight before it crashes. We might spot AJ sitting there waiting to possess Lockes body before the flashes.

Thomas Tennant said...

Erika, you may end up with as Season Six with two - count 'em, two - John Lockes!

I read Doc Jensen's recap and he makes an interesting point with all the Jacob-touching going on. What if Jacob was embuing each of them with a piece of his soul, ala Harry Potter/horcruxes.

So when they come back, they can resurrect Jacob. Just, unfortunetly, not in his charred body. They'd need a better vessel - a good candidate - to house Jacob's soul.

And don't they have an empty vessel lying right there on the beach?

Could this be why, in Claire's dream, Locke had both a black eye and a white eye? Because the final battle will be Jacob-Locke vs. A.J.-Locke?

And, in the end, Locke (albeit carrying the spirt of Jacob inside him) gets what he always wanted. To stay on the island and be one with the island.

Two Lockes for the price of your sou ... er, I mean ... the price of one!

RWGibson said...

I wonder if the producers got in contact with Terry O'Quinn before they sent him a script for this one? I know they do so in other cases when an actor's character is going to die...

I remember reading a year or so back that he got in touch with Lindelof and Cuse when he got the script where Locke knifed Naomi because he had some "suggestions." I also recall he said he doesn't do it much, if at all, but thought that was really important so he made an exception. I can't imagine what was going through his mind when he got this one :-)

Anyway, I've not posted here before, but I think your recaps are some of the best available. Been here on a regular basis since the "ripoff" youtube blog incident. As a writer myself, I can understand the frustration. It's not like the guy couldn't find some other LOST fans to gladly do his writing for him if he only asked politely...

As Jacob might say:

RWG ("Sorry this happened to you")

Kia said...

I know everyone hates Kate, but Juliet was the flip-flopper last night! I texted a friend during the episode that I was "tired of the story being dependent on Juliet's peri-menopausal mood-swings". I don't think the writers give us very strong female characters. Still.... I was very sad to see her go.

I can't wait to see what role Miles and Walt will play in all of this...

Jon said...

Well Erika, as a post Seanie B. fan, I was forced to discover you. I have to say, there were times I looked forward to his recaps more than the show airing that night. With that said, I have to be honest with you. I have never felt more rewarded with a reviewer as I am with you. Your professionalism,, insight and maturity level you bring to your reviews proves why your a "Professional" writer. I won't get into the theft thing here (Seanie B = Locke V2.0), because we all have moved past it, just want you to know I appreciate all your hard work and can't wait for your recap. For true Lost fans it's important to find a site they feel at home at. Just want to thank you for supplying that place for all of us here. I know we're on a 7 month break, but I look forward to journeying to your site again and again. Great work and don't be afraid to take your time on that recap. We'll still be waiting (what else are we going to do).

Gumionday said...

Thanks for the quick recap E. I am with you on the Locke thing he is my fav character too and I will be down for sometime. I can handle him being a bad guy but it definitely makes me a little mad that they set him up to be the great protector this whole time just to make him a wuss that tried to kill himself in a apartment.
Dead or not
Long Live Locke

Tiffany said...

I posted this comment on EW.com, too, but I was wondering if Erika had a take on it:

I wondered after viewing the finale a second time, if there was any significance we should take from "when" Jacob touched each person that he visited? i.e. The exact words/sentence he was saying when he touched them, like he was implanting some specific thought into their mind or something. I just noticed how deliberately he seemed to look directly at them when he spoke the words and touched them. Does anyone else have an opinion? I would love to hear what you all think...

Thanks Erika. This is a great blog. My 11-year old loves Locke, too...

Anonymous said...

Great post, E! A couple of thoughts that my wife and had -

- I think A-J is definitely smokey. The evidence is too circumstantial. Smokey seems to only be able to take the form of dead people on the island, so it makes sense that he needed to get Locke back to the island dead. When Alex appeared to Ben and told him to follow Locke, Locke didn't appear until Smokey was gone - because Locke was really Smokey.

- I think the loophole isn't that Jacob has to be killed by someone else - I think that would be too easy for A-J to accomplish. I think instead Jacob has to be killed by the leader, which is Ben. I would submit that either Ben became the leader again because Locke died or that Locke never became the leader even though Ben thought he was.

- Until I read your post, I thought about the Jacob and Esau thing and maybe Esau's birthright that Jacob stole was the protection of the island (the Garden of Eden). But after reading your post, I have to agree that the writers would probably not be so obvious in the religious undertones.

Can't wait to read the full post!

mvidas said...

While I liked Rose's "Oh, hell, no", I actually laughed out loud hearing Bernard's "Son of a bitch" right after

whimsymoon said...

Great post E! I guess I wasn't the only one that woke up this morning....in mourning! For a split second when they rolled Locke out of that crate (and I had an awful suspicion it would be him when Richard knew the answer to the riddle) I thought I would never, ever be able to watch another episode of LOST again. If Locke is actually dead....he is a horribly tragic figure in this story. Once again his being the "man-of-faith" betrays him for the corrupt use of others. I have always wished that the story would end with Locke shining and victorious!
It's going to be a long, long 9 months.....
Thanks again for the great post!

Janet said...

I just keep telling myself that in movies and TV shows it ALWAYS gets WAY worse before it starts to get better.
The whole Locke-evil-twin-thing has GOT to be the way worse part before it gets better, and, real-Locke DOES turn out to be the good-guy-and somehow comes alive again or arrives. You're right, the fans NEED Locke to triumph!

MissMay said...

E, i was stalking your blog all night last night, wondering if you'd put up a reaction to a rather emotionally charged ending to the season. But I have a thought that may keep your hopes up a little as to what Locke's fate will ultimately be come the next season.

-In the 'Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham' when Locke met up with Waaaaalt (hehe), I couldn't help but memorize their exchange especially when he began to talk about his dreams.This one line stood out to me. 'You were in a suit, running through the jungle. People were trying to hurt you.' (horribly paraphrased of course) Now since Walt is special, and I believe his dreams mean something or possibly really do happen (like him appearing when locke had been shot)I believe this really means something...something that will eventually happen.

Now I ask you. When is John Locke wearing a suit on the island? Well right now of course...the real John Locke that is. Maybe there is a chance that the Locke we know and love will come back again after all.

Just something to think about. Now I'm really looking forward to your full recap! Happy typing!

Janet said...

OK, I just read all the commnets so here's another comment from me...

Please tell me which episode had the Claire dream where she saw Locke with one black eye and one white eye, cuz I don't remember that.

How did the writers get to be such geniuses (geniusi?)

Did Jacob touch Jack? I thought he just gave him the Apollo Bar.

Jacob did not visit Juliette, right? Was that because she wasn't on flight 815?
BTW, I never really liked Juliette until she got dragged down into the hatch. But, she and Sawyer seemed so happy and that was a very powerful moment. Sawyer even cried.

Ditto on the favorite lines!

Ditto on Mile's insight on Jack being the one to cause the accident.

When is Miles going to start talking to the dead people? I thought for sure we'd get some good answers via his gift this season.

What do you think Ben did to the statue of Sobek?

How do you think Sobek will be used in the story? The Wikipedia article says Sobek is a "repairer of evil" and "was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part".

Jon, "(Seanie B = Locke V2.0)". That's awesome!!! I found this blog because of the Seanie B thing too.

Emily said...

Hey e--Thanks for the pre-cap! It was really nice to have analysis right away since my head was spinning out of control!

I think A-J's spirit was trapped in the cabin ("Help me!"), and Locke inadvertently freed him when he went there with Ben (it may have happened when all that freaky stuff went down with the lantern, etc.?).

Whether he is now a Locke-clone (doubt the producer's would take this route, as it seems kind of lame) or is possessing his body or whatever, I find the most interesting part to be about A-J's demeanor when we first saw him after 316 landed. Remember how he was devouring the mango saying it was "the best" one he had ever had? And then they kept showing him standing happily in the shore staring out at the horizon, as if he hadn't been able to do that in a VERY long time? It seems that A-J's spirit was trapped in that cabin for many years (by Jacob?), was released by Locke, and now has a body to live in again. What happened to his own body, and what this will all mean in the greater scheme, I have no idea, but I do think that it unfortunately means the end of John Locke. :(

I think that A-J was able to control/use Smokey from the cabin, but was unable "walk the island" himself until his spirit was freed and dead Locke returned. With Smokey at hand, Locke's body to use, and Jacob being dead, A-J looks to have full control, which should make for a very scary time on the island.

I hope my thoughts make some sense, as I am still very much in processing mode after last night!

Take Care,

another e

drallabg said...

It takes 8 raps to make an explosion? Juliet gone? Doubtful as much as Locke being gone. Core characters are gonna be around for the last season....at least in some form. I truly believe the show revolves around Locke....since the beginning!

Mellis said...

When the show ended last night, I was so depressed/angry I said, "That's it. I'm done." I know I'll continue to watch, but I was so totally bummed about losing Juliet. The happiness she and Sawyer had was the only true light in the story. Now we're left with Jacob and A-J's war, and frankly Scarlett....well you know how it goes.

erinw said...

I agree, much sadness if Juliet IS dead, she was fast becoming my favorite. BUT... she didn't die before the blast, none of the 77ers did, as far as we know so... aren't they all dead? Or alive (my preference)? Isn't there at least some hope beyond the usual anything-can-happen-on-this-island?

LostFan said...

LostFan Said: <<"Smokey Locke" was playing dumb. He wasn't there...Only smokey and Ben were there.>>

So theres more than one Smokey? Is that what you mean? Which Smokey is good? Which Smokey is evil? I thought Smokey was just on one side. I still dont get it!? Sorry im such a dumbass!

Not a dumass at all. When I was originally writing my response to you I did an edit and took too much out.

What I was trying to say was that Smokey Locke knew about Alex and what was said. Smokey Locke was playing dumb because if he didn't, Ben might catch on. Why would Locke know anything that happened while Ben was with Smokey if Locke wasn't there. If after Ben saying " My dead daughter..." and Locke didn't say anything, Ben might have caught on. Does that make sense?

Anonymous said...

I'm so glad you posted a quick update - can't wait for the full summary - keep up the great work - THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR EFFORTS!

Dr Chang said...

I can't believe you didnt mention my arm!

e said...

Dr Chang -

Thank you for making me laugh for the first time today!

Could it be that I'm finally breaking out of my Finale Funk?

- e

plainrose said...

I'm thinking that Jacob (in white) and the other guy (in black) are more like the yin and yang than like good and evil opposites.

Julie said...

Hi e - delish comments as usual. Your comments reminded me of two movies. First is "The Forgotten" w/ Julianne Moore playing a mother whose son dies in a plane crash and suddenly no one but Julianne Moore can remember him. The end of the movie reveals that the whole thing was proving a theory (humans can forget even ones they love) some alien had. Sort of like Jacob and A-J having opposing points of view about human nature.

The second is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. While I think those who don't die will have their whole memories intact, it would be a kind of nice twist if their memories are erased, but yet still have some residual memory (like in ESOTSM).

We've already had a couple cases of deja vu (Rose recognizing Smokey the 1st night on the island).

I guess we'll see - IN NINE MONTHS. Arrgh! Julie

ryu said...

Long time reader, first time commenter! Loved your recap.

Though I have to say that I think its entirely possible that Locke is dead, and he is just closing the loop on a very consistent life in which he's been duped time and again -> first by his dad, and now by A-J.

It would make him a truly tragic hero, who's Achilles heel is precisely that he wants to be the hero so badly it makes him susceptible to folks like (the original) Sawyer.

My big question is whether Juliet is dead. The last time we saw a white flash like that end a season (ironically in just about the same spot) Desmond was turning a failsafe and ended up in the buff running around the jungle. Will the island heal her and deliver her to Sawyer?

Also, how does the 77'ers blowing up that nuke make them Jacob's cavalry as he suggested they would become as he died? I can't see how their action changes the scenario where Ben is killing Jacob...

Timothy said...

I was terribly disappointed. The crappy CGI sub in the previous episode was an omen. We had to see that only for Rapid-Mood-Swing Juliette to do her Sayid bit on OJ Guy and escape? (In the latest ABC interview she did say she would like to be Sayid if she was another character.)

The Quadrangle is so mixed up, inconsistent, and superficial, I would have blown myself up, too. This is bad writing. They (a) tried to cram too many changes into one episode and (b) cater to the dimmest viewer who thinks he's watching a soap opera or 24. (Jack's body count this season compares favorably with another famous pistolier named Jack.)

They know fans will bend over backwards to make sense of the hash they made of this, but we had to suffer through characters we've come to care about click through emotional states as quickly and randomly as a car radio searching frequencies.

That's what we're left with for as long as it takes to turn a light sweat into a fully functional human being.

Anyway, I'm going with the theory that the bomb did not explode, but there was a time flash. Of course that means much of season 5 was an elaborate red herring.

I'm glad Locke really didn't turn into the smug know-it-all we've seen of late.

Oh well, maybe other people liked it. For me, the writing seemed sloppy and I would have liked more answers, less frustration, and a lot less melodrama.

Chissock said...

Hello, I have some thoughts I wanted to share with you.

First, smokey can actually take human form. We saw that when Alex talks ben to obey Locke. That would be of-course a plan of A-J ( that could somehow turn to be VERY related to smokey ). I think that two Locke's bodies are not needed to really impersonate locke.

I think the loophole was actually that he (A-J) crafted his chance ( through manipulating everyone and making the circumstances perfectly right in time ) to impersonate as John Locke him-self, and take control. That's why he told ben to obey everything that "John Locke (AJ)" says, AND, that's why AJ told Richard, to tell to the Real John Lock that he had to die.

Well those are my thoughts, I hope you understood my ideas.

:)

Timothy said...

"My big question is whether Juliet is dead. The last time we saw a white flash like that end a season (ironically in just about the same spot) Desmond was turning a failsafe and ended up in the buff running around the jungle."

Oh, yes. That's a thought to tide me over until next year.

Rose said...

Great pre-recap!

Janet, thanks for the Sobek being the "repairer of evils" reference. That says volumes in this show.

Sorry Erika, but I, too, reject the clone theory. A/J can take various forms, and he chose Locke's body for a lot of obvious reasons. Still, I'm sure we'll see lots of T. O'Quinn next season though, no matter what.

All the coverage I've read today (and LOTS of it, the IT guys at work are coming after me tomorrow) have assumed Jacob is the good guy. Why? I ask. What will save us all lies in the shadow of the statue, not the statue itself. Although at first blush, I also subscribe to no absolute yin/yang theory.

I never had a favorite character (although I confess to loathing Jack and Kate) but when Sayid was shot last night, he became my favorite character, and I missed a good chunk of the episode being verklempt at his demise. So I'm off to watch it again, and look forward to your "real" post.

Favorite line last night: Rose (proud to be her namesake, btw): "It's always something with you people". Also, Miles' reality check. I've been thinking that all along

Anonymous said...

I have spent the last four months of my life trying to catch up to LOST, and finally I did. So this was the first episode I saw on its original air date. Now I don't know WHAT to do with my life..with the season finale and so many questions left unanswered...

Can't wait for the post. Keep writing.

Anonymous said...

E -

First off, I love your work. I look forward to your recap every week. Great stuff. Now on to the business at hand. I know what a Locke fan you are and because of that I think your judgement may be a bit clouded. Locke was the perfect candidate for A-J to use as a loophole.

Locke wanted so badly to be "special" that he was an easy mark for "the dark forces" or whatever you'd like to call it. I theorized on another board that Locke was never special and that he was basically being used as a pawn to get the "true" special one into position.

Like it or not, I truly believe that Jack is the "chosen one" and Locke was used as a way to get Jack where the island wants him to be.

A person gets conned because they want to be conned. (Just ask Sawyer) Locke wanted to be something other than what he was and he was willing to believe anything that would make him more than just a guy who worked at a box factory. Again, he was an easy mark for A-J and A-J knew it.

If you look at the overall arc of the story so far you can cleary see A-J setting up Locke from day one. It pains me to say this because I am such a fan of your work but your boy Locke was a patsy. He's been used and abused by the island more than all the other 815ers combined. The truth of the matter is that unlike Sawyer or Jin or any of the other 815ers, Locke has yet to resolve his biggest problem. Locke was so blinded by wanting to be "special" that he never did what he needed to do to possibly be special; which was to simply follow himself.

Based on the history of the show Locke's fate couldn't have played out in any other way. Not one of his decisions ever really worked out the way it was intended. Sometimes he got lucky and others he caused more problems than he solved. Sadly however, at no point did he ever get it "totally right." He wanted to be special. People told him he was special. As fans we wanted him to be special. But if you look at all the evidence presented to us over the course of the show it's easy to see that at the end of the day John Locke was simply a pawn. Nothing more.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Nathan said...

It's still extremely unclear how much of the "Jacob," Christian, Island guidance stuff we've been experiencing over the last couple of seasons is actually authentic Jacob, and how much is Esau (yes, that's what I'm going to call him. If it's not his actual name...then, well, it should be) working to manipulate Locke into becoming his tool for Island fratricide. Despite the revelations of the last episode, I think its clear that at least *some* of the Jacob we've seen is actual Jacob's will. How much of it, though...well, I guess we'll eventually find out. For now, your guess is as good as mine. The circle-of-ash, "imprisoned" vibe about the cabin, and the ominous "help me," Poltergeist stuff does seem more like Esau's style than "I'm really sorry this happened to you." *touch* Jacob. And the eye we see in the cabin is brown like Esau's, unlike Jacob's baby-blue peepers...but on the other hand, Illana and Bram seemed to think they'd find Jacob there...true, they don't mention him by name, but it seems unlikely that they'd really be going to see Esau. I mean, their mission seemed to be to warn Jacob and/or the Others by showing him/them the evidence of Esau's dastardly plot. On the other hand, though...
Ah, it's too complicated! I need to go watch some Spongebob Squarepants.

In any event, I don't think Locke's part is over in this story-- somehow, I can't shake the idea that we'll eventually get to see resurrected Good-Locke fighting Evil-Locke over a raging chasm of lava at the center of the Island. :)

Anonymous said...

What about the book Jacob was reading something like "what goes up must converge" Something like that- what's all that about?

question said...

Hey.
I'd like to mention that Jacob (biblical Jacob) was born holding his brother Esau by the foot.
And Jacob in Lost lives under big foot. Symbolism perhaps ?

Love the blog.

jill m said...

I saw "Jacob" on an episode of CSI tonight (Thursday) and immediately had an affectionate feeling toward him.....because he's Jacob. JACOB! Mark Pellegrino will forever be Jacob to me. (assuming Jacob is on the good side....who knows anymore with LOST.)

Locke, the real Locke, must return.

Erika (or anyone), did you think Juliette's eyes looked strange when she "changed her mind" when talking to Sawyer? I thought they looked unnaturally blue...a bit possessed in nature. Especially in her exchange with Sawyer after he beat up Jack.

Maybe it's nothing...especially since she might be dead, but .... anyone else notice that?

briguyx said...

A few points:

First off, E, don't worry. Locke will be back. I believe there's two possibilities: One, the great Doc Jensen theory of the souls of the 815'er's being touched by Jacob will bring them back to the island in the new timeline. But I also read on Wikipedia that when Jacob dies, his descendants will come to Mount Seir to render judgment on Esau's descendants in the End of Days. That could be the war coming to the island. Also, remember, the answer to "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is "He who will save us." If they bury Locke there, he's the one lying in the shadow of the statue!

I really don't believe Smokey and Esau are the same. I think Esau/Locke was genuinely surprised when Ben said he'd do whatever Locke said. Unless of course he was just happy his long con came to fruition so well. I really do need to watch that scene again...

Esau could easily be a shapeshifter or just able to copy the bodies of the dead who come to the island. Remember, Yemi, Christian and Locke all came to the island already dead.

I also think that it was Esau who was imprisoned in what we thought was Jacob's cabin. At some point, someone must have shifted the ash that was around the cabin, letting him out of his prison. It would be interesting if that's the thing Esau/Locke had to do when he went into the jungle without Sun and Ben, but if he could do it with his fake Locke body, there's no reason he couldn't have done it with Christian's. I think we'll find out who did that next season.

And for everyone who hates the fact that the characters made decisions out of love... isn't love what's best about humanity? Isn't that what we all should be shooting for? Isn't that how the forces of light will conquer the forces of darkness? As they say, live together or die alone. I believe that's what "Lost" is trying to tell us, that without love, we are lost...

nativemaori1 said...

PLEASE READ AND COMMENT

ok where to start
i am not sure if anyone before has talked about any of the topics that i'm going to bring up but they are too big just to sit in my head and chase each other,

1st thought, this thought has been in my head for quite some time,

who told the person who created the lamp post station don't look for where the island is but when??? the only reason i bring that up is because that was the first thing to come to mind as soon as the episode got started,
(when bad jacob was talking to good jacob about him being responible for bringing the black rock to shore)
it annoys me becuase the way jacob and bad jacob were speaking to each other it was like a expeariment with the people they bring to the island and jacob keeps on trying to prove bad jacob wrong. poeple actualy having love in they hearts.

2nd thought, this is only a new thoery but bear with me

bad jacob and good jacob are the two smokes (the white smoke and the black smoke)

i sincearly hope that that is the case and i am pretty postive it is due to the fact that in the episode dead is dead whenever the black smoke is around locke is gone i.e.when ben tells sun to stand back because whats going to come out of the jungle he can't control,
and if those two are the smokes that will also explain why the white smoke came into the room when sun was with christian because christian is and has always been bad jacob or the black smoke(that's why he tell locke he has to die) and good jacob gose in as the white smoke and checks up on what bad jacob is doing.

3rd thought, this is another new thought,
ben is the loop, right from the start ben was working for the bad jacob and not the good jacob that's why he never saw good jacob because good jacob didn't know him, when he was shoot richard took ben to bad jacob to get healed and from then on he was the loop

another thought is tha bad jacob isn't that bad, he just always knows what the people are going to do and just abuse the island that is why he hasn't touched the nadlers (rose and her partner)

ok that's me plase email me if you understand any of what i am saying and want to talk bout it more

en4313@gmail.com said...

As a fellow Locke fan, I too was dismayed by the thought that the real Locke was dead. But then I started thinking...

First, I don't think there are any clones. So, Locke's dead body IS Locke's dead body. In other words, A-J (who I believe uses or is Smokey) took the form of Locke (much like Christian Shepherd or Alex or Yemi) and fooled everyone from the time flight 316 returned to the island. It would be like shape shifting OR an illusion. All the smoke we've seen when Christian was in run down Dharmaville would lend itself to this idea as well.

Second, What lies in the shadow of the statue? He who will save us! Is Locke the "he" who will save us? I think it's possible, especially since they've brought his body to the statue.

Third, If Locke is who can save them, will he be resurrected? Will he be capable of doing something as "dead Locke" that he couldn't have done alive?

Fourth, In season 1 Clare had a nightmare that featured Locke with both a dark glassy black eye and a white one. Can it be that there will be an "evil" Locke in the form of A-J and the true Locke brought back to life that ultimately will do battle?

Before I am flamed, these are just ideas off the top of my head. Food for thought if you will.

225712012 said...

@Timothy;
Damn right. I was actually glad to see the original Locke in that box. I never cared much for 2.0, he'd become a smug condescending bastard. If that's what Locke is, then I would happily have him lying there in the shadow of that statue dead as dead. However, the confirmation of his ressurectable corporeal [good] self on the island is more than enough to give me hope that the writers wouldn't desecrate the great man's memory in such a way.
You should take some solace in it too.

Joshsmith868 said...

Don't worry E the fact that we had a white LOST screen at the end of that twisty turny joygasm of a season finale says to me that all the rules have changed. and I'm game for the sit in!!!

Chris said...

You're asking yourself why Widmore is working with A-J... I think the same applies to him as did to Ben: He was thrown off the island and A-J manipulated him through his frustration to get back at Jacob.

Sally said...

thanks Erika so much for this fast post.it was great!!!!!! i really hope that "our Locke" will return to us somehow or i'm gonna miss him sooo much..
and i agree with you that love quad is responsible for blowing up the island.i always enjoyed the romance part of the show....until now.
I'm waiting for two "real" things:real Locke next year but before..your real recap.don't forget to mention phil's death or chang's arm please......

Enverz said...

Hi e!
I've never commented here before, but I've been reading your blog for a while.
Just wanted to say that I'm a Locke fan too and I totally agree with about everything you write about him. So... Thanks for your recaps & I completely understand how you feel now.

BlackrockBob said...

Great write up as always. I am looking forward to your full review.

Learning the all knowing Locke wasn't really him took so much away from how much I loved this episode. I've been looking forward to a Jack and Locke reunion so much. Unless we get the real Locke back, Jack will once again have to be against Locke. I felt that the final season would be one where Jack, Locke and Sawyer team up for once to win the "War".

I think you won't have anything to worry about clones. Besides all of us loyal readers of your blog would be "lost" without it.

Anonymous said...

I found this remark on E!online, "Jin said that being away from like Sun was wrong, like the 'sky being apart from the earth.' In Egyptian mythology, the goddess of the sky is Nut, and the god of the Earth is Geb, and as depicted in the image to the right, they are lovers lying together, forever mating and creating the world." I personally think Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve but I could be wrong.

Anonymous said...

I was just making progress in therapy until this episode. Guess I have the next 9 months to catch back up. Great! "It all began in my childhood..."

Sherylm said...

OMG! I can hardly wrap my head around this finale. I was quite annoyed by the love quadrangle but after Team Darlton's comments in the clip show, I knew that they were going to keep on running that rabbit. Juliet's being pulled down into the pit was a very sad scene and I was actually glad to see it didn't end there. I certainly hope Sawyer does NOT go back with Kate...

When Ilana and Bram (who makes me think of Frankenstein for some reason) and their pals threw the crate down on the beach in front of the statue, I suddenly knew it was Locke's body inside. But here in NC, we thought that Locke actually died the first time when his dad pushed him out the window and that it was Jacob's touch that brought him back to life. So, Ben didn't really kill him at all or at least, not the first time. I'm sure that he still has a huge role to play in this story and that the Locke impostor will soon be demasked.
Did you notice the new perspective the operation scene gave us on Jack's dad...he wasn't so bad after all, it was Jack who acted like a jerk after the operation. That seems to be a recurrent theme: badness/goodness are often only mistaken impressions. Anyway, I'm now sure that Jack's dad is really dead and that the thing parading as him is the same impostor as the one who has taken on Locke's form.
I liked the calm and centered Rose and Bernard and the obviously well-fed Vincent :-)
And as you predicted, Phil got what he deserved in a very dramatic way.
One thing for sure - Hurley is the only one of the Oceanic Six who went back just because it was the right thing to do. Jacob gave him a choice and he made the right one. And I'm still hoping that guitar case means we'll be seeing Charlie again next year.
I'll be looking forward to your further analysis but, cheer up, Locke is central to this story and I think Jacob knew exactly what would happen.

Timothy said...

Flannery O'Connor was a Catholic short-story writer whose works frequently featured the results of twisted religious views, psychological manipulation, and the everyday stupidity of ordinary people. Her trusting, but dumb characters, are constantly surprised by the casual brutality of men who are "just they way they are."

Everything That Rises Must Converge is an anthology of short stories (she may have written a novel, but I don't remember it.) In one story (The Lame Shall Enter Heaven First) a character named Sheppard becomse obsessed with "fixing" a manipulative orphan, while ignoring his own son's severe depression. The object of his beneficence despises him and manipulates the son into hanging himself so he can be with his dead mother.

Maybe O'Connor (who is always worth a read) is key to the moral universe of LOST. This will be a good excuse for me to re-visit her.

In particular, the theme of ordinary, flawed people confronting evil men and being completely out-maneuvered is interesting. The religious huckster is a favorite target of hers (although she herself was a devout Catholic).

C. Hays said...

e

As for your confusion about the seeming impossibility of two Locke bodies - maybe A J has the power to simply "morph" into whomever he wishes, and doesn't necessarily need a body. I know, it's mind-boggling, but I would rather think that, then when events are changed by whatever means, Locke can simply never have been strangled by Ben.

cjh

BigBen said...

My only comment is that its amazing to me how much your blog has influenced my perception of the show, becuase the first that I thought when I saw Locke roll out of the box was that Erika is not going to like this.

And, because of that I wasn't too surprised to see your early, "first reaction" post. I'll patiently wait for the real one(s).

rosered2318 said...

Holy Crap, woman, you called it first. (http://longlivelocke.blogspot.com/2009/03/s5ep8-lafleur.html)

Abc confirmed that the statue is Tawaret in the recap (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648)

NICE CALL, ERIKA

Luis Filipe Fabiani said...

E,

Regarding Chang's arm, didn't the metal hit his hand?

One thing made me wonder, though: why wait 5 seasons to introduce Jacob/Anti Jacob?

The battle appears to be Life versus Death, right? Jacob kind of believes in humanity and recruits the living, and AJ doesn't believe in us and recruit the dead.....

What an awesome season finale

Tim said...

if AJ is in Lockes body, how come he didn't know where Jacob lived??

Tim pt2 said...

aj = smokey?

also, Kate saw a horse, and Sayid saw that cat........ maybe it all ties to individual or collective consciousness??

Anonymous said...

Erika, if you haven't read this theory - have a look:

The "Real" Locke will Return

When Illana asks Richard what lies in the shadow of the statue, he replies (in latin) with "he who will protect/save us all". The "will" implies that this refers to someone other than Jacob, a savior or leader who has yet to rise to prominence. Interestingly, the only person currently "lying in the shadow of the statue" is the corpse of the real John Locke, perhaps implying that a true resurrection is in store, and that Locke really is "special" and destined to save the island, from "Pseudo Locke", or whichever force is revealed to be the true enemy.

From Lostpedia.

Regards - Ivan

Tarah said...

I'm on Lost overload now! (after reading multiple recaps and many, many comments and theories) I don't feel like I have anything additional to add. I have felt for a long time that Rose and Bernard were Adam and Eve...and this episode made me think it even more. I thought several of the actors did an amazing job this episode. The performances just keep getting better and better.

The only comment here that I want to respond to is the one who said perhaps it's just not gonna be Locke who is central to this whole thing. It may very well be Jack. I have to admit that could be the case. The show started with Jack, it could end with Jack. That makes sense to me. The other amazing and complex stories and characters may simply serve to get him to where he needs to be. Good thoughts.

Oh, and also about Claire's dream...I didn't remember that either, maybe a fuzzy memory of it. What episode was that? I want to go back and look at it.

I want to spend the hiatus reading "The Time Traveller's Wife" and now maybe "What rises must converge". Looking forward to you more in depth recap, E!

Dr.ama said...

hello every body
Regarding the finale scene I think that Juliet will be shifted through time as we saw the flashing before,and this scene remember me about what happened to john lock when he fall down into the water well,so she will be in the wheel room as I think and since the fall has not been enough to activate the nuclear head so it will not blow by hitting it by a stone.

Thanks..

Anonymous said...

Amazing blog! My sister introduced me to your blog E, and we have together been scavenging the postings trying to piece together our own theories. After beginning the process of re-watching season 1, a poignant line surfaced that got my head spinning...

As Locke is explaining the game of Backgammon to Walt, he describes it as “The oldest game in the world…found in ancient Mesopotamia…2 players, 2 sides, 1 is light, 1 is dark.”

I could not believe my ears! It resonated quite well with what we are led to believe following the season finale. I did try to do some research about the game and ancient Mesopotamia. While sources may not be reliable, there was some interesting information about the Gods creating slaves and "releasing them". Also, I know next to nothing about backgammon, so any analysis of the game would be interesting to read. Can't wait for the recap E!

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Real Locke better be back in some way in the next season (even appearing to the other Losties a la Obi-wan to guide them against Un-Locke would be better than nothing).

One of the best characters of television (and definitely the most original and interesting character of this show, at least for me) doesn't deserve such a callous, unceremonious send-off. See, the problem isn't even with Locke's death, but with the fact that he was manipulated all the way through. He didn't even get a real "heroic" moment like Charlie or Juliet (although, looking back at what he did throughout the series, he did save the lives of Jack, Sawyer, Juliet... and brought the O6 back).

I think there is still hope for him, though. The scene with Jacob in the flashback was a very important clue, I believe. Why would Jacob touch him, symbolically "choosing" him as one if those on his side - if Locke was ultimately going to be just a pawn of Jacob's enemy?

After Juliet hit (or better, smashed!) the reset button, anything could happen in season 6.

S.

BBY2 said...

Your A-J Is Smokie and there is no clones is just the smokie that took the shape of Lock to convince Ben to kill Jacob

YoYo said...

I love how the porducers throw in a book every now and again that is completely relevant to the goings on of the show. That book, "everything that rises must converge" is about dealing with humans and morality and everyday situations.

Can't wait for your writeup....

Kim-the-girl said...

I have a question for all those thinking that AJ is smokey and is Christian... what purpose would AJ have had to send Vincent to wake Jack because "he had work to do" as seen in the mobisode (or whatever they were called)? Not that I think you're wrong, just curious what your thoughts on this are.

adi* said...

The show started with Jack, it could end with JackNot necessarily. As a significant part of the show is character evolution, maybe the Man of Science will turn to a Man of Faith ^_~

Timothy said...

So the statue had a hippo head, and not a crocodile head?

Looked like a crocodile head to me.

Timothy said...

Black and White Eye.

Knew that rang a bell. Horus was the sone of Osiris and Isis. Evil Set was his mortal enemy. In one battle, Set tore out one of Horus' eyes. (Horus retaliated by tearing off Set's family jewels.)

Horus' eye was reconstituted and he was known as He Who Rules With Two Eyes. The white eye was the Sun and the black eye of was the Moon(or, my guess is, an eclipse).

Interestingly, there are combination figures with BOTH Horus' hawk head and Set's ant-eater (or whatever; no one knows) on the same body. While there are dynastic explanations for this, the Egyptians organized their whole life around dualties. (They had no word for religions, it was so pervasive.)

In mythology, a person with one black and one white eye could only be seen as Horus.

And I still think there was a crocodile head. Maybe ABC needs to go back to their E. Wallis Budge :-)

galldo said...

i think a-j can somehow shape shift into other people as long as he has touched them. which makes me think that jacob in the real world is actually a-j going around and making sure that these people make it to the island because all there destiny’s will bring together the death of jacob. they made a point of showing that he touched them all. remember he said at the beginning that he couldn’t wait to kill him and jacob said that he would be right there waiting on him, which could mean that jacob never leaves the island. also a-j is probably vincent, what better way to get people to touch you without raising suspicion than being a nice dog, and how many times has vincent just been sitting there watching things happen. it would also explain why we see so many dead people, because there actually a-j. that’s my first thoughts, not sure where it leads. i also think the main story is along the lines of gods playing games with people as pawns. then again i also think it could be other stuff. god dam brilliant show, better end good!

JonieFresh said...

LOST's 2Hr Season Finale was one of the best season finalies yet! Was it just me or did anyone else find themselves at the verge of tears when Juliet apparently "died"? i was so releaved when we saw her again at the bottom of the well/swan station thing!

Courtney said...

Awesome pre-finale post E -- that helped to soften the blow of waiting until 2010 for another episode!

I am on the same page with some of the other posts that claim John is smokey/AJ. I also think smokey/AJ manifested himself into other Lostzombies (Christian, Claire, Charlie, etc.) in order to succeed in his plan to prove Jacob wrong. After all, "dead is dead"! I still have hope for Locke though...!

tino86 said...

I think it is clear that zombie Locke is the same entity as AJ who is one in the same as the smoke monster. Remember when ben was in the temple and the picture of the statue (which represents Jacob) is in a battle with the smoke monster (that which is AJ/zombie Locke and zombie Christian. Funny though how ben really didn't know that much about the island (thinking he needed the smoke monsters forgveness...all while he serves Jacob..interesting I think. I also think widmore knows alot more about the island than ben..I mean he does the war is coming..that which I don't think ben knew

Anonymous said...

I thought the loophole meant that A-J couldn't get at Jacob because only 'The Leader' could visit Jacob. And making Benjamin believe he was following the leader, he could actually walk in with the real leader. A-J seems to be the prince of lies.

Once he was in, with the same lies he made Ben kill Jacob, where all Jacob did was to appeal to the goodness in Benjamin, without offering him anything.

Hans Lagewaard

pollywood said...

yes you were sooo fast! great recap! i loved it. and the jacob/esau thing made me think a lot.
i truely have the suspect that jacob met our characters in the exact moment when they were loosing their virginity/purity.
we shouldn't forget jacob CONNED his brother esau about the birthright, even if it was because of their mother's dream/prevision. is he the good one, so?
and i'm pretty sure (i have to watch it one more time) that he actually touched all of them (i have to watch it one more time), as he had to touch his BLIND father to be recognized. that means.. i don't know, i'm a little blind too now..

YoYo said...

Oh crap!! So anti- Jacob has been using Christian's body this whole time orchestrating Ben and Locke's actions.. And that's why he's been living in Jacobs house..

steve-s said...

I agree with you about the love quadrangle -- absolutely ridiculous. That is the reason why they are detonating a hydrogen bomb? I was really disappointed with that bit of writing. That aside, the finale was decent, but I feel the show is getting a bit too complicated for its own good sometimes.

Andre from Brasil said...

Oh my Gooood!!! What was that Season Finale!!!! Great!! (Apart for Locke corfirmed death)
Luv ur write-ups! w8ing anxiously for ur full SF write-up!!
=]

Sherylm said...

Talking about leaders, when Richard knocked Ellie out, he said he did it because he was protecting their leader. So does that mean Ellie was the real Others/Hostiles' leader at that point in time and not Widmore? Several times on the show, they have emphasized the fact that there can only be one leader of the island at any given time. So maybe she gets exiled then and there and that's when Widmore takes over until his own exile when Ben is an adult. That certainly would explain the animosity between Ellie and Widmore later in life.

Mauro said...

I think that it's almost obvious that the monster is AJ, you said it before. and Locke's "body" was "possessed" as soon as the Ajira plane crashed. So, "Monster Locke" has never traveled in time.

A thing that I noticed: Jacob wanted Locked to move the iland in order him to leave the island and to avoid AJ to possess him (and kill him)

Steph said...

Jacob did touch everyone he met with during the flashbacks....except for Ilana. And, he was wearing all black AND gloves.

I just find it interesting that she is the only one he doesn't touch and the fact that he is also wearing gloves to cover up the hands that we saw featured in all of his other flashbacks.

Not sure what this means...but I thought it was a very interesting point.

Mr Solis said...

Great episode and prepost! Though I disagree with some of your thoughts:

I don't know how you've assumed Jacob is good and AJ is evil! There's not a clear clue that lead in that direction. I'm not even sure that there is good and evil, but two character battling it out. IMO, Both seem pretty cold and heartless so far.

I think the love quadrangle was appropiatedly used this time. There was very slightly used this season and only it appears when the big decisions are called. I guess in real life, love is often that important. Juliet changed her mind after seen Kate on the sub, I think I would have change as well if I were her...


Incidentally, for the previous episode (15), you've said it was without a flashback. But as I reviewed it, I could see it as a history of 1977 with Richard Alpert's flashfowards in 2007. He appears more in that episode than in other one, and close ups of him links pretty much transitions.

So far we're not sure Claire is REALLY dead, so assume smokey has taken her body is a bit premature, lets see...

Keep on writing. I follow your blog from France since the Seanie B situation. Awesome!!

Anonymous said...

I don't think that the A-J Locke was a possession of his body, otherwise you would have to mark down all manifestations of people on island to have been possessed bodies, surely. So Walt when he appeared to Locke, Yemi, Dave. They all appeared in form but were not necessarily the bodies being possessed. So no I'm not worrying myself with "when did A-J manage to possess Locke?"

Adrian said...

I honestly don't think either side necessarily is good or bad, I think they are simply two different entities on the island the represent different aspects of existence. Jacob being the one that represents free will. And the Smoke Monster who represents destiny. I think that everything we've seen thus far in the first 5 seasons is just another pass in the time loop with each person fulfilling their destinies and rolls within the master plan. Basically all the Losties are inconsequential pawns in the feud between these two original entities. And the Smoke Monster has finally found the loophole (Ben) to get revenge on Jacob for allowing the black rock to reach the island/paradise, thus spoiling the island. Ben's the loophole because the Smoke Monster manipulates him using his own free will against Jacob (who is then taken out by his own beliefs), so he proves free will is flawed in humans.

I don't want to go too deep into it but if you want to say one side is god and the devil, you can. except that neither is good nor evil. Just rival entities that oversee the island. They just have different opinions on the human condition and Jacob wanted to put it to the test, therefore the battle begins. Jacob recruits all the Losties (Kate, Sawyer, Jack) to help him. But when they start believing what Locke told them about their destinies, they begin working for the Smoke Monster side without knowing it. The Smoke Monster believes that they will fulfill their destinies and complete the time loop and that will continue over and over again until he figures out the loophole. So Smokie uses Jacobs own theories of free will against him. This is done by him manifesting himself as Christian and telling Locke to go off the island and die in order to fulfill his destiny. John then comes back in the box on Ajira 316, Smokie manifests himself as Locke and fools everyone, and manipulates Ben into killing Jacob even though Ben has the free will to walk away.

Roland said...

Hi Erika

It's now Saturday morning here in Ontario and I hope you're feeling a little better. Don't give up on Locke. Don't forget Boone's Sweat-Lodge Vision in which he predicted that Locke's Mission was to Bring The Family Back Together.

I'll wait for your "real" post to get into detail, but just wanted to quickly share the following:

All the time that A-J was manipulating the Losties (plus Ben) into the Assassination of Jacob. Jacob was patiently planning his counter-strategy, which included encouraging Young Jimmie to pursue a Vengeance-Driven Life and permitting Nadia to die before Sayid's eyes so that Sayid could be manipulated by Ben into becoming more of a Killer than he already was - so that Sayid could be sent to 1977 and turn Ben into the God-killer that Jacob needed him to be.

I agree that Jacob represents the Light Aspect of The Island/Creation/God/The Universe, but this Light Aspect certainly seems willing to use evil means to achieve a Greater Good.

Qaiser Waraich said...

Sorry Erika for your loss. :-) I was similarly depressed when it dawned on me that John Locke was indeed dead. Unlike you, I don't hold out hope that he will be back - 'dead is dead', after all.

This episode reminded me of a quote, I believe from the producers, from way back in Season 1. At that time, they likened the Locke character to the traveling man from (IIRC) a Stephen King novel. For the last 4 seasons, I could not understand what they meant by the reference that Locke was a character who was (I am paraphrasing here) morally ambiguous - someone who we don't know if they are good or bad or what their intentions are.' It's taken 5 full seasons, but if the new A-J Locke is going to be around for season 6, that certainly applies.

Ultimately, though, I agree with you. It's depressing to think that Locke's life ended in yet another ruse where he was taken advantage of.

Timothy said...

Perhaps Locke is the one who will reconcile Free Will and Destiny somehow. I'm thinking backgammon here. The white and black pieces, the white and black eye, the game. At one point didn't Locke even hold up one of the pieces to his eye?

Why didn't the writers have Locke playing checkers or chess? Because unlike those games, backgammon uses dice. There is a lot of strategy (Sayid should play Locke, because "tawla" is the favorite game of Arabs to this day.) But there is still an element of chance. You can choose to total the two dice and move one piece a greater distance, or split the dice and move two pieces. You can protect pieces, take risks, be aggressive, but:

the object is to get all your pieces home.

You can take out your opponent's pieces by landing on a space where one is by itself. Then it goes to the bar, and sits out until it can be brought back onto the board by a certain dice roll. Backgammon is often played for money, and you can raise the stakes mid-game.

Einstein could not accept the theories that were coming after him because he insisted "God does not play dice." I am not a physicist, but I do believe that quantum mechanics does speak in terms of probabilities. (Perhaps someone else can channel Daniel Faraday.)

Ancient Egyptians did not play backgammon. They did have a "dice" game that was more like chutes and ladders, but the same principle applies. You can still buy Senet in museum stores and the like.

Jacob eating the fish is too obvious a reference to the resurrected Jesus to be chance, I think. Traditionally, free will is seen in Christianity as a terrible gift. The angels fell because of Lucifer's "non serviam" choice. If the Others are cultish Jacob worhippers, however, I am troubled by the "rave room" where "Jacob loves you" is programmed into dissidents. Seems to be anti-Jacob. (Perhaps this is not sanctioned by Jacob, just as many things Christians do are not sanctioned by Jesus. Or perhaps the Others have been misled by Anti-Jacob at times.)

Jacob makes a point of letting everyone choose. In a way, he represents the Variable. The Man In Black believes humans cannot change; perhaps he is the Constant. Lucifer thought the whole human thing was ridiculous, very similar to our MIB or AJ. (And, of course, it is hard to argue against that proposition.)

What I find odd is that Jacob is weaving his fate-like tapestry. That is a good representation of his machinations over time ("Takes a long time. Guess that's the point.") It does not seem very free-willy, though.

By the way, Locke was crippled, so was Horus. The boar, which Locke is so fond of killing, is associated with Set, Horus' legendary foe. I bet before it is over, Locke is really resurrected, and will reconcile both sides as rightful ruler (Pharaoh was the earthly manifestation of Horus) of The Island, which will turn out to be Atlantis. ("Hail Atlantis!" - Donovan.)

In LOST, the gods don't play chess (see Jason and the Argonauts, which is what the Foot reminds me of) but Backgammon. God does play dice.

Of course while my history is impeccable my guesses about LOST are never right.

We attach so much significance details from people who apparently not know the difference bewteen Tawaret and Sobek :-) Look on Lostpedia. They are calling it Sobek, too, but seriously, this is a crocodile snout, not a hippo one. Any arguments? I didn't think so. And yes, Sobek was depicted with little ears. E is the only one to get it right (because her fans ar th smratst).

Anonymous said...

Heard about your site from some friends who watch as well. We had the idea that "A-J" was actually EVERY ghostie thing on the island, including Christian. Christian and Locke both arrived, dead, in coffins, and then apperead on the island, so it kind of makes sense. He could also be taking the form of the people and animals they see over the seasons (i.e Kates Horse).

Timothy said...

Err, that should be "calling it Tawaret on Lostpedia," although there are crocophiles there, too. Find a screen cap of the cloth Illana pulls off the wall of Jacob's cabin. Now tell me *that's* a hippo! (It is The Statue in profile, and clearly a crocodile head. Nothing about either one looks remotely like Tawaret.)

The more I think about it, I believe we are being misled on purpose. Sobek seems evil, but has good aspects, including "repairing evil done." He is also associated with resurrection (in the Book of Coming Forth by Day (a.k.a. Book of the Dead) holding the "ladder" up for Osiris, the pre-Christian resurrection god par excellance).

Maybe there should be an Egyptology of LOST blog! Okay, signing off now, I promise.

Brendan Sullivan, PT, CSCS said...

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the entire 5 seasons might very well have included 2 different "Lockes"? And that he was only now able to exert his influence over Ben (getting him to kill Jacob) was revealed & happened only once Ben strangled the other Locke? Essentially there have always been 2 characters all along manipulating things and trying to influence events...

Joseph Newton said...

e,

1st off, I'm sorry for your loss. When they showed Locke's body in the crate, my 1st thought was, "Oh no." My 2nd thought was, "e is not going to like this."

I think it COMPLETELY sucks that Locke is dead. As much as I hate to admit it, and I REALLY hate to admit it, I think the real Locke is dead, as in gone, as in not coming back. I really hope I'm wrong.

Also, I don't think A-J possessed Locke's body or possession is involved in any way. I believe A-J is a shapeshifter who can take on many forms. I think A-J has appeared to many people on the island in many forms: he appeared as Yemi to Eko, he appeared as Dave to Hurley, he appeared as a hourse to Kate and he appeared as zombie dad to everyone. Basically, every time we have seen someone or something that shouldn't have been there, I believe it has been A-J.

I've enjoyed Terry O'Quinn in evil rolls in the past, he was the bomb as General Omar Santiago on 'Harsh Realm', but if the real Locke does not return, it won't be the same. Even though I doubt Locke is coming back, you can count me in if you organize any protests, sit-ins or plans to kidnap the writers to resurrect Locke Misery-style. I wonder if Kathy Bates is busy.

Long live Locke!

Joe

erinw said...

As rosered2318 pointed out (good catch), the ABC episode synopsis calls the statue Tawaret. Timothy clearly does not agree. Is is safe to presume that Darlton/the writers have nothing to do with the synopses, just as they reportedly had nothing to do with the captions on the reruns? If so, then I suppose that means that the synopses aren't canon. Anyone out there know for sure?

Timothy said...

Contra my insistence that the statue is Sobek, not Tawaret, I find myself in disagreement with not only everyone else, but a cite to the script I saw somewhere referencing "statue of Tawaret," and Michael Emerson himself quoted in TV Guide (at least per the internet site I read it on) who identifies the statue as Tawaret and comments on the childbirth issue. That's why the statue and drawing both have big tummies and pendulous breasts. Err...

Of course, if Ben said it, we KNOW it is a lie :-)

Maybe the people responsible for the statue got it wrong and that's why we don't see the head but from three-quarters behind or so briefly it takes a screen cap to notice. "This isn't Tawaret, you idiot. It's SOBEK!"

Where was Locke injured in the crash, and what scar does he still bear? His eye? The evidence mounts. We'll see Locke back after his real apotheosis, because he's Horus.

I think Smokey is indeed a part of the judgment of the dead, the Eater of Hearts. Perhaps his manifestation as the one wronged by the person being judged is part of it. Wasn't Mr. Eko defiant when his brother manifested to him? And wasn't Ben truly regretful before Alex and got a pass?

Now that I am in the clutches of Egytomania, I'm even looking at Vincent as Anubis, the dog-headed Leader of the soul through its afterlife journey.

In the meantime, you're right. Terry O was the scariest guy I've ever seen in Stepfather!

Anonymous said...

Hi, I just wanted to say I too am a post Seanie B follower and I could not be happier that it all happened as it lead me to your blog and for you to finally get the recognition you deserve!

I'm with those saying AJ is Smokey, remmeber how Locke 'coincidentally' came out of the jungle on cue when Ben was waiting for smokey, and I dont think he needed a body perse but is able to become a manifestation of people - dead or alive, perhaps in that way Jacob takes on the form of Christian too, to try and undo the damage AJ tries to commit?

One other thing that keeps popping into my head is Hurley, and how he is the only other one to have seen Jacobs cabin...could all the 'dead' people that Hurley sees and talks to, actually be the manifestations of Jacob/AJ in other forms? Or perhaps as some have already suggested AJ needed someone who he could easily manipulate?

Cant wait to read your full recap on this, and know that I will be a firm follower through the last season!

H.

Lovelost said...

Isn' it a little strange how in the 1800's Jacob & the other guy don't seem to speak in a manner/vocabulary consistent with that era? That was the first thing that came to mind as soon as I saw the Black Rock.

dani2 said...

I couldn't wait to hear your thoughts on this episode! I knew you would be upset the most about Locke! Sorry :( A little positive...If you still have love for the actor-at least you know he'll still be on the show. There were past seasons we weren't even sure about that! Can't wait to read more from you. You are great!

Roland said...

Although I agree that "Locke" and Smokey are connected, I disagree that they are interchangeable, because "Locke" doesn't know everything that Smokey knows.

"Locke" didn't know what Smokey told Ben in the Temple Sub-Basement, nor did he know where Jacob lived.

Once inside Jacob's Tapestry Chamber, "Locke" told Ben that he and Jacob had previously met "in a manner of speaking". For me, this meant that having taken Locke's form, A-J was limited by it. "A-J as Locke" didn't know where Jacob lived because Locke didn't know.

This limitation makes A-J vulnerable in the looming War.

mft25 said...

Jacob and a-j knew about the loophole and they knew that it will happen in the end. Jacob was trying to make progress hoping he would be able to change the end (a-j kill Jacob). so he was always try to add variables to the story to make the change. So there are some possibilities:
1- Jacob knows the end and he try to change it by asking illana to come there and expose a-j by bringing Locke real body to the hostiles. So they will fight and kill him. a-j was shocked and angry when Jacob told him that they are coming.
2- Jacob meant by they are coming jack and his friends and they were succeeded changing the future. So may be in next season they will show us the impact of blowing the bomb on the future of everyone. Like jack said oceanic reach LA airport and how this will affect the end cause then Locke will not be there and a-j will not be able to kill Jacob using lock body
3- Everybody Jacob touch reach the island. This is how he guides everyone to the island and this is how he chooses his variables.
4-jacob is trying to change the end depending on every one choice cause simply he could met Ben before and prevent him from killing him but there are rules between Jacob and a-j they cannot break. This is why Jacob did not protect himself from Ben he asked him to choose. May be he originally sent Saed to kill him?
5- Loophole thing is it first time happen or it is always happen and Jacob try to change it?

Timothy said...

On rewatch I enjoyed it more. One thing I picked up on about Juliette was that she did not back Kate's plan on the sub, as The Clueless One assumed and thanked her for on the beach. That's why Juliette was like "[rolls eyes] uh... yeah, sure Freckles. Whatever."

Juliette realized Sawyer had settled into a false life in Dharmaville and once they got back to the real world their playing house would not be the same. Whether Kate proved irresitable to Sawyer after leaving (or, more likely, he stuck with Juliette while secretly pining for Kate) or they got killed in The Purge by staying, Juliette intuited that, even though they loved each other, they were not meant to be together.

That was the real reason for Juliette's actions, beginning on the sub, and it started with Sawyer saying "once we're in the real world, we can do whatever we want." Perhaps she did not fully realize it until she saw Sawyer's glance at Kate with Rose and Bernard.

Her reward was Sawyer calling her Blondie, ("Yay, he has a pet name for me, just as unoriginal as the one he has for Kate.") So she died happy. (If she died.)

Kate's turnabout with Jack remains less clear. Maybe she realized she was the only one not on the bombwagon. Maybe she saw the bigger picture, that it was not all about Jack rejecting her, but about getting Aaron back to his mother, and putting everything back the way it was supposed to be.

It would be nice if Jack was acting because he finally got it: there is destiny, but a big part of that is choice (e.g. Claire possibly not giving up Aaron). But no, he wants a do-over with Kate. Still, Jack seems to be groping toward the right answer, however mixed his motives might be. Of all the characters, he seems the most genuinely changed.

Timothy said...

2 Sherylm: Illana and Bram remind you Frankenstein? More like Dracula. Bram Stoker is the only person I've ever heard of with that name, wrote about an undead count. His LOST namesake carries a coffin around like Renfield, wears a black shirt, abducts Miles and Lapidus, yet keeps telling everyone he's one of the good guys.

I'm with Frank on this one. I doubt Bram is good. I have my doubts about Jacob, too.

Mellis said...

The more I think about it, the more I'm agree with other posters that the whole thing has been about a "game" between Jacob and AJ, disputing free will and destiny.

I was also thinking about the missing ash around Jacob's house. Was is AJ who used the ash to manifest himself as Locke? Is that why ash is missing?

Anonymous said...

Gary Troup = Purgatory (anagram) = Bad Twin. Have they 'mis-directed' us all along?

Sherylm said...

Timothy - for Frankenstein, I meant that Bram makes me think of the Addam's Family Frankenstein, not the scary kind :-)
As for the statue being Tawaret, I also thought it was a crocodile head but when I looked some real Egyptian statues and drawings on various museum sites, I had to admit that their concept of a hippo head was quite similar to a crocodile's, probably because they knew from sad experience what really dangerous animals hippos are.

Sherylm said...

Lovelost: I was also very surprised about Jacob and AJ's vocabulary/mannerisms in the opening scene...maybe it was a clue that they are not really from that era, but it was quite jarring.

Timothy said...

Yes, more people are killed by hippos than any other animal in Africa, I think.

But I'll never be convinced we've been shown Tawaret.

I can tell you, Sobek is very angry over this whole LOST thing, and if they don't get it right ther will be many more cast DUIs in the coming months, and at least one crocodile attack.

I have seen Sobek's list. e is not on it. Let's keep it that way.

Anonymous said...

Hello Guys, did you think that if LOST would have only 5 seasons, they could have add one more minute to this finale and show the oceanic 815 to land in LA as it was supposed to,,, and nobdy would know anything what happened etc etc and show ends (like waking up from a dream)...
The conversation at the beginning between Jacob and A.J iis key,,, they are not god for sure,, but somehow Jacob believes that "progress" will make human being good at the end,,,
it will be a long wait,, let's hope they give us a good show finale,,, good bye from Argentina,, a really lost world,,,
Ale

georgina said...

Hey the earth must have shaken a teeny bit with us all jumping up and YaYing for Vincent!! And then Aaaahing when Miles goes to help his Dad.
We're going to use the break to go right back and re-watch from the beginning!!
I am still not sure that living Locke is not THE Locke - one thing I know is that I know nothing!! Schroedinger's cat comes to mind - after all Alex was dead, then alive then gone. Plus all the cross-over existences due to time - we already had two Kates and two Miles.
Agree the love quadrangle did diminsh our heroes nobility a lot!!
If Jacob is dead (as dead as anyone is because I am sure we will see Claire and Charlie et al again) then it must fit the island's purpose. If it isn't meant it doesn't happen....??
And a lot of thoughts rise up as usual from Lost literature if you Google the book Jacob was read - Everything that Rises Must Converge......

V3L said...

first time post.

what puzzles me is, if the ajirans knew that lockes body was in the box why didnt they do anything when they saw the fake locke parading around the crash site. why did they jus let him to do his thing.

the way they handle the box earlier, its as if they came to the island precisely to show the others lockes dead body but yet, they had no hand in bringin the body to island. they look as if they know wat theyr doing but yet they said to richard at the end that they just 'found him' in the cargo hold. if they just stumbled upon him then it leads to the conclusion that they came to the island with no fixed mission. they then found lockes dead body and that became the mission??

again the question, if they knew the living locke was phony, why didnt they do anything. all this is just wierd to me.

and again if jacob did know that
aj would find a loophole sooner or later and kill him ( the fact that he just accepted his death willingly), it begs the question why did the ajirans have to 'warn' him????

help me out plz guys. thx

Anonymous said...

In the end this is all for not. If the bomb erases what happened of brings the O6 back like planned then Jacob never really dies.
AJ said it best. They come, they kill, purge and it always ends the same and Jacob mentions that the end is not important but the progress made. Either the O6 have been around for years, maybe they've been doing the same thing over and over until they get it right. Maybe the O6 was on the Black rock, maybe they've been through this all, that is why they were in 2007 and they almost blew up the island with Keamy, they are also in the Dharma photos. I think the O6 are like groundhogs. Sooner of later they will end in peace and not blowing each other up. Think about all of the bombs, there's the TNT on the BR ship, Jughead and the C4 on the freighter.
Even though Jacob "died" this will all be corrected again if what happened didn't really happen.
What I don't understand is that through all of the time travel they kept their memories but then if they travel back in time because of JH going off then they wouldn't remember. I know that this is supposed to take them all back to the plane but their pasts have happened and I'm not sure how they can change it.
I did like how RA mentioned that he went to visit Locke 3 times and still is not sure about him. This is funny because we think RA knows all but he really didn't.
One thing that I think holds the key to the finale is what's the deal with the tapestry. TPTB would not have shown this twice and then have Jacob point it out if this didn't have meaning.
I can't wait to read the rest of your write-up E.

Just call me Bill said...

This may have already been addressed in an earlier post, but when Jacob laid his hand on Locke after he was shoved out that window by his dad it seemed that he was brought back from the dead at that moment. Anyone else get that impression?>

Burgertime said...

I think it's clear that AJ took the form of others but I don't think Smokie takes their form. Remember Ben only saw "flashbacks" not bodies. The smoke monster was already gone when Ben's "daughter" made her appearance.

What I find more interesting though is when Claire told Kate not to come back in Kate's dream. Why would she not want Kate back? Which brings up why Charlie wanted Hurley back. Remember what Jacob told Hurley that he has a gift...however Kate does not have this gift (unless you count the horse). So AJ does not want the others back...but Jacob does. This is what leads me to believe that he knew those sent back in time could be variables. If we are to believe typical Lost logic both Jacob's death and the A-Bomb going off happened at the same time. Thus why Jacob said, "they're coming".

Also I think my new favorite character is Seth Rogan Jr. that guy is hilarious.

Anonymous said...

How was the "New Locke", A-J able to know everything though? Like all about John's history. About Sun, Ben, and others?

Anonymous said...

What if Locke v.2 = Smokey (in another form). And, Smokey = A-J?

Anonymous said...

We never did learn who the economist is and who's initials are R.G.

Also Jacob is not all that good. He did intentionally divert He of curly locks and black tank top to look away so that the car hit his wife and kill her.

Jacob is a sneaky fella

bill said...

I actually think that by calling Sayid back, Jacob was actually intentionally saving Sayid's life.

Anonymous said...

e:
My condolences on the Locke-Box. However, take heart, as Jack said, "If I were you, I wouldn't give up on John Locke".
AND
What name are you going with for the 'new' Locke? I like Unlocke or Flocke (as in fake Locke).

Thanks-
justashow

lostquestions23 said...

Erika... I feel so sorry that my first comment on your amazing blog, after all these years, is such a sad one, but I thought you would want to know what Terry's thoughts on the new character are...

They're not good btw, so click at your own risk :(

http://www.sl-lost.com/2009/05/16/terry-oquinn-i-think-its-ended-for-locke/

[SPOILER-free!! btw. It's just Terry's thoughts, no concrete info.]

Again, so sorry :( I hope my future comments will be more cheery.

Timothy said...

Wow. That interview with Terry O left me depressed.

Is Locke's legacy to be, "No matter what kind of pathetic loser you are, in the great scheme of things your existence allows Kate to hook up with whichever of Jack or Sawyer she feels like at the moment?"

On the other hand, maybe we're being played. I cannot believe the creators of this show would build up Locke as this great character then end it for him with being dumped out of box dead. (It just occured to me he worked for a box comany and was called "box man" by someone.)

Boycott Star Trek until we get reassurance ;-)

the_evil_twin said...

Great job with the midterm...can't wait to see the final!

I thought you'd be pleased that Locke was not evil. I can't believe how well they slipped that evil copy in on me. The whole episode they were sticking it in my face! Cut from the silver box to a coffin (James' mum or dad) indeed! I should'a known. I even said, out loud after Lapidus got a peek "well, it's big enough to hold a coffin." Sheesh.

We should also be ashamed for not guessing that the creepy cabin was being used "by someone else." The message Locke got was "help me" and I suppose it may have been *J (I call him not-Jacob, and that's my computer geek way of writing it) that he heard. Indeed, Locke helped *J in a most unusual way!

Season 6...what can we say? TPTB can do almost anything they want. Kill off all the main characters (boo, hiss) and give us a bunch of ancient history, a recap of the first five seasons, and then a wrap up. Or, keep all the main characters, realign them properly in time, and loop it. Or finish the whole deal, if enough J/*J "progress" has been made. OR, run everyone back in time a sesqicentenial and have them arrive by sailng ship.

Whatever.

Oh, let's not forget the possibility that Rose and Bernard (R&B, anyone?) may have it right. Like ebony and ivory, we should all live in perfect harmony. (gag, too sappy even for me)

Speaking of the old black-and-white dichotomy/duality, how 'bout them costumes on J and *J? and R&B popping up at just the right moment. All we need is a black lab to come bounding out of the creepy jungle. Bernard's "son of a bitch.." had me in a puddle on the floor.

Miles also had a killer moment. "Uh, have any of you thought that maybe what you are doing CAUSED the incident?" A question I asked last week!

Thanks again for the wonderful blog(s). I'll be anxiously awaiting your wrap up for the season!

gah, when does the show start up again? :)

Oh, and BTW, if they do indeed go and dip too deeply into the bible for explanations, that's fine. They've got enough other mythology in here that it won't completely gag me to death. I might make a rude noise, but I'll get over it.

the_other_foot said...

Oops, had to blather on a bit more.

Why need we assume that Ben is taking sides with J or *J and that Widmore takes the other side? Perhaps the human struggle is entirely unimportant to the entities.

Oh, and I think we should introduce J to The Old Woman Who Lives In a Shoe. They'd be a natural pair.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for all your recaps. You have a real gift for distilling the important bits from the wild ride this season.

I don’t have a DVR or HD. Has anyone noted how many toes Jacob has in the opening scene?

Timothy said...

"I think we should introduce J to The Old Woman Who Lives In a Shoe. They'd be a natural pair."

It took overnight, but I get it. That's funny.

Timothy said...

Would Jacob have Ben as a leader if he were good? Or, even less, baby-killer Charles Widmore? Why did Ben believe Jacob lives in the cabin if he really lived in The Foot? If Ben was misled, why did Richard allow him to continue believing it? Unless Richard thought the less Ben knew the better. But Ben does not seem surprised when they go to The Foot instead of The Shack, either. Something is not adding up.

Was there a situation where legitimate communication from Jacob was made through Richard, and Ben was illicitly communicating with Anti-Jacob?

It is funny how the DHARMA initiative was there for experimentation, and it turns out that human beings are as much lab subjects as the polar bears to Jacob and his nemesis.

Anonymous said...

I always love hearing your thoughts on the show. I'm not sure how Anti-Jacob is appearing as Locke (last night a friend shared a theory that Anti-Jacob and Smokey are one and the same and that he is just assuming Locke's form...interesting), but if your knee-jerk theory is correct and turning the wheel produced a clone of Locke, wouldn't it have produced a clone of Ben too? Just a thought. Good luck with your full post!

-Meredith

Anonymous said...

Hi, long time reader, first time commenter. I have one question: how are you so sure that Jacob is on the "good side" and AJ is on the "bad side", if there even is a distinction? I got the very strong impression by the end of this episode, much to my surprise, that Jacob is on the evil side.

Bejae said...

I agree with you that we will never see what Jacob and A-J really are. It's one of those things that Damon and Carlton will leave to our imagination/interpretation.
My personal favorite line was Sawyer's, "This doesn't look like LAX". Nice post.

Timothy said...

Well, at least we know that exploding the bomb did something. The people who were present at the explosion are the ones who disappeared from the Ajira 737-that-can-fly-from-Los Angles-to-Guam by Frank "Never Run Out of Fuel Again" Lapidus.

This would account for the seeming arbitrary nature of who was "transported" off the island into the past and who crashed in the present. Although it is maddeningly circular like most time travel theories, the bomb did change things so that they were not on the airplane once they entered the island's time bubble -- when they were someplace else. Like, dead? (Not that I believe that.)

whist said...

then wha did they say it is taweret in the abc episode recap???

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648

lostquestions23 said...

@ Timothy, it was Desmond who called Locke "Boxman". A few times in fact. This is my favourite one:



"[Back on the island, Locke approaches the still-drinking Desmond on the beach.]
LOCKE: So what did one snowman say to the other snowman?
DESMOND: Smells like carrots.
LOCKE: Hello, Desmond.
DESMOND: Hello yourself, box man.
(e: the best part is that the transcript guy wrote "the still-drinking Desmond")"



Taken from our very own LLL - http://longlivelocke.blogspot.com/2006/06/s2finale-live-together-die-alone.html

Timothy said...

Whist: Because (a) the LOST writers wrote it to be Tawaret and other people didn't match the statue carefully; (b) they did not write it to be Tawaret, but Sobek and the statue is correct, but the ABC recapper and Michael Emerson (who admitted to researching it on his own) are simply mistaken; (c) it is Sobek and supposed to be Sobek and we're being deliberately misled with all this Tawaret business; (d) Timothy is seeing things wrong and it is a not a crocodile-headed male but a pregnant hippo female with pendulous breasts depicted on both the statue and the cloth from Jacob's shack (you be the judge); OR (e) next season it looks a whole lot more like a hippo after all the debate :-)

I don't know who writes the ABC recaps, but I assume they have access to official information. I don't think it is important enough to mislead us about (how many people know the difference, anwyay). So I think (a) is likely.

I still see Sobek. But, just as with Frank's Ajira 737 which could in no way fly to Guam, maybe the people who make LOST forget how obsessive fans can be about esoteric details. Maybe they had the idea for the foot (which was supposed to have six toes to begin with, apparently) and that is the important thing, and the actual identity of the statue isn't a big deal. Perhaps they thought the traditional representation of Tawaret would be risable, while a Giant Crocodile looks way cool.

Now aren't you sorry you asked? :-)

Timothy said...

Hey V3L: "if they knew the living locke was phony, why didnt they do anything. all this is just wierd to me."

If Caeser was indeed part of Illana's posse, they did try to do something: keep Locke from leaving their custody in the canoe. Until Ben shot him. Ever wonder why I'm-just-a-passenger Caeser would care enough about anyone taking their chances with a canoe to try to pull an Auto Burglar on him?

Once Locke was gone, they knew they would have to have evidence to persuade people that (Un)Locke wasn't the real deal.

It would be natural to try to get into the cargo hold to scavange for useable items, even if they did not expect to find Locke.

By the way, did anyone else think it was odd the way the camera lingered on Bernard giving a menacing look toward the departing 4-H-poultry-show-rooster-and-two-hens-trio? Granted he was not happy to see them, but it seemed pointedly un-Bernard and creepy. (Also that whole thing is pretty coincidental, even for LOST.)

Anonymous said...

Hi, just wondering what if the loophole Jacob referred to that AJ found was the 'need' for Locke to die, seeing as we have seen it didnt strictly speaking serve any purpose other than to provide AJ with the opportunity to kill Jacob through Ben? That could well have been what the scene where Locke instructed Richard to tell him he had to die, was intended to tell us the audience, emphasised by ben in his awe at Lockes super ability to know exactly what time and where they ahd to be etc

also I'm starting to lean towards Jacob perhaps not being as good as we think - if I;ve understood it right, people are theorising that he represents/supports freewill, yet it seems that through his touching of all the people he has perhaps drectly manipulated them thus removing a degree of free will. Also I was quite suprised by his complete change in reaction towards Ben, to go from trying to persuade him he has a choice to that quite sinister/goading "What about you" made me think either he had a plan, or we were seeing a different side to him. Then there's also the idea of Jacob imprisoning AJ in the cabin and it actually being his voice that pleas for help to Locke.

Someone said above about the ajirans carrying Locke's body to Richard and how it seemed they had no purpose being there etc but i saw it as they probably had stowed all the guns they had in that cargo box, and while going to retrieve it that was when they found Locke's body so decided to take it with them to show Richard, and they were there with a purpose as designed by Jacob?

Just a side note, Matthew Fox on Jimmy Kimmel said that he dosent die and he is in it all next season, so im interested to see more about Richards' comment to Sun!

Melanie said...

I haven't read all 180 comments, so my apologies if this has already been thought of . . .
just as I was reading your column, I realized that all the people Jacob touched pre-flight 815 (Kate, Sawyer, Jack) were all on Jacob's List and taken captive by Ben and the Others (after Michael marched them across the island in search of Walt) at the end of Season 2. Maybe those were the only 3 he ever wanted from 815? He did touch Locke pre-815 too though, and Locke wasn't on the list, but by that time Ben had already told him that he (Ben) had come for him (Locke). Or something like that. Maybe he touched Sayid and Hurley post-island pre-Ajira because he realized he needed them too?! Interesting.

Kevin said...

As unbelieveable as it may be, I think there are two clues that the real Locke may be resurrected:

1.) Jacob seemingly brought him back to life once. Locke looked pretty dead after his fall form the window, and Jacob’s touch revived him. First of all, the fact that Jacob did any of this suggests that Locke has a bigger purpose. And if Jacob revived him once, he can likely do it again, if he isn’t really dead himself.

2.) What lies in the shadow of the statue? He who will save us all. It sounds like it refers to Jacob, but Jacob was actually within the statue. Who was lying in the shadow of the statue? Locke’s corpse. Add this to other references in the show of Locke being a savior or compared with Christ.

Lost seems to have an undercurrent of hope, so I imagine the writers would rather have Locke’s journey be a positive one, faith rewarded, than have it be tragic. More importantly, I think he will realize that he has been manipulated all along and finally make his own choices.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the post, it really helped me get my head around some things.

Right now, i'm on board with the whole a-j is smokey and taking the form of locke theory. Its just the one that makes most sense at the moment considering that we havent seen locke and smokey together since locke's "resurrection"

However I do think that "real locke" will appear in season 6. I agree with you that it just doesnt seem right for such a strong character to meet his demise so pathetically.

I also think that the incident was the hydrogen bomb all along. I personally feel that Faraday knew he couldnt change the past and just told Jack that he thought he could to manipulate him into causing the incident in the first place. Maybe Daniel found out somehow that it was meant to be Jack who caused it all along. After all, "Whatever Happened, Happened"

I dont think that Juliet is dead either, mainly because if she died in the explosion then its most likely that all the other main characters at ground level did too. This just doesnt seem likely for obvious reasons. I think somehow the explosion has reacted with the speacial energy at the swan and has just sent them all back to their correct time period.

Looking forward to your recap and cant wait for season 6, its going to be a good one :-)

emma x

Jeff said...

E... Just want to thank you for another great season of recaps. Can't wait for the last post... And I look forward to yet another season of your beautiful reviews!~ Seems like most fans are starting to all end up at the same conclusions regardless of how LOST we were when this all began!~ I also find it funny that depending on your values and how you have lived your life we all try to make LOST work in our world. Example... My computer geek friend stated a few weeks ago that Smokie was a computer that controled most of the island through NanoBots (much like the smoke in "The Day The Earth Stood Still")... that Lock was in fact a robot who was being controled. Now you take someone else who has a history in Faith and Church and they will tell you that it's Angles and Deamons. Just amazing how the writers can let your own imagination write the story for each individual. All Love E!~

Megan said...

I think that your thoughts on Jacob and A-J being like the Dogma characters is very insightful (or, should I say, your husband's thoughts). I am a little surprised by the magnitude of bloggers saying that Jacob is "good" and A-J is "bad," though.

I think the show has used the black and white garb to show opposites many times, not necessarily good and evil. Echo and Locke were often shown wearing white and black, respectively, but that didn't mean that Echo was good and Locke was bad. Only that they were the spiritual opposites on the island. Likewise, Jack and Anna Lucia were shown wearing white and black, respectively, when they first met. That didn't meant that Anna Lucia was bad and that Jack was good, just that they were the opposite leaders of their respective ends of the plane on the island. I think that the only thing we can conclusively say from Jacob and A-J wearing white and black is that they represent opposites.

As far as who A-J is, I think that DetectiveFork has it right in thinking it's a smoke monster thing. This would not only explain how A-J gained Locke's likeness (we've seen the smoke monster appear in many different forms on the island, even as people such as Yemi, Echo's brother), but it would also explain the Alex thing. I thought it was kind of funny that Ben went down to be judged by the smoke monster alone, and that as soon as his interaction with Alex/the smoke monster was done, John reappeared. He was gone for the duration of that interaction. I also never got why the smoke monster would tell Ben to follow a fake Locke. The smoke monster could be gullible, or A-J may have control of it, but I think it makes a lot of sense that A-J would turn into Alex, scare the crap out of Ben, and then turn back into Locke knowing that Ben would do what he said. Finally, when Ben calls the smoke monster to judge him, Locke rounds the corner in a similar way to when Ben summoned the smoke monster before and smokey rounded the corner to take out Keamy and Co.

Last, but not least, the statue. I agree that the mouth could be that of an alligator. The body is clearly more human than hippo (apart from the four toes, which points to Taweret). However, when talking about Egyptian gods or goddesses, they can be represented almost exclusively by their headdress. Ra's headdress is exclusive to Ra and the mere symbol of his headdress represents that god. Sobek's headdress is pretty dang orante. It's not a small, simple thing. The headdress on the statue is much more like Taweret's. I don't think they would skip Sobek's extremely ornate headdress if they wanted to accurately represent that particular god.

Whew...

- As Always -
Tucker

Timothy said...

Megan a.k.a. Tucker : I agree with everything except the Egyptian god depictions. Egyptians were henotheistic and believed that the different gods were aspects or "names" of one god. The essence was expressed in the form: hawk, hippo, jackal, crododile.

From time to time one family or region would gain ascendancy, and their patron deity would be "promoted." Also, since they were all aspects of one god, their attributes could be mixed and matched to a certain extent to express combinations of powers or even reconciliation or rival dynasties. (That's why we see weird combos like Horus-Set, where the arch-enemies are combined into one two-headed god.)

Incidently, isn't the theme of LOST the reconciliation of opposites? Black-White, Faith-Science, Fate-Free Will, etc. I don't believe the series will end coming down on one side or the other, but recognizing the product of both.

Tawaret is kind of unusual in that she is not depicted with an animal head on a human body, but a big ol' fat pregnant hippo body with a hippo head. Sobek, on the other hand, is usually depicted with the croc head on a male human body. (Or sometimes as a crocodile, just as Anubis can be a complete canid or a human with a k9 head.)

You are correct that Sobek is often depicted with an elaborate headdress. In fact, he has about the fanciest gear there is. He has two big feathers, associating him with (creator god) Amun, a solar disk, associating him with Ra, twin ureus serpents and horns! Over time his headdress collected various symbols reflecting his followers' success in promoting him. His can be found wearing a plain topper, too.

The headdress shows a modulation of the essence, and is not very meaningful on its own. That's why several different gods share the solar disk, but it is the body / head that makes the god and demonstrates how the solar power is expressed.

Tawaret is often considered Sobek's wife, though, and is sometimes shown in her normal upright hippo form with crocodile hubby on her back! And, since Sobek also has to do with fertility, whatever we call the statue, it can work.

Do you ever wonder if these ambiguities are deliberatly created to keep us thinking about and discussing LOST? If so, it is brilliant.

In the end, the dramatic impact probably favors a depiction of Sobek rather than Tawaret, who would probably just be confusing if not silly-looking in monumental form on TV.

Anonymous said...

hi there.. when will you be updating this wonderful blog of yours with the full analysis of the finale? thanks

Anonymous said...

Here's the odd thing. I read somewhere else that the fish that Jacob was cooking was a red herring. Hmmm. so, maybe Jacob is really not the good guy. So i am wondering if there is something like, they're in purgatory, they're stuck there together? I mean, the one guy does ask if Jacob knows how much he wants to kill him, and, they obviously disagree about a major issue (is there good within the soul of a human, maybe?) But, they don't really seem to HATE each other. I think black shirt guy just wants to get "unstuck." First time Ive posted...

Keith Johnson said...

You wrote, "But somewhere along the way there must have been a SECOND Locke Body for A-J to possess."

I disagree. Given the large number of "ghostly" apparitions that have shown up on the Island, I don't believe A-J is possessing a body of Locke.

Smokey can take the form of people without a body being required. Either A-J is smokey or the same situation describes A-J as well.

Come to think of it, since Hurley isn't crazy, are all of his "ghostly visitations" in the same category? Either, Jacob, Anti-Jacob, or Smokey communicates to Hurley via ghostly form.

Megan said...

Timothy -

Thanks for the facts! Any insight on how Sobek would represent the LOST story? And yes, I think there's definitely a possibility that Lindelof, Cuse, and Abrams make these things kind of foggy to spur on obsessees (like us!).

Anonymous -

Interesting! You don't happen to remember, by chance, where you read about the fish, did you? A red herring usually is an idiom or logical fallacy. It's usually described as a an argument, given in reply, which does not address the original subject and is intended to divert the audience from the truth or significance of the matter. If the fish was, in fact, a red herring, what do you think this could be referring to? Could there have been a response between Jacob and A-J that diverted away from the original topic? Finally, the producers have mentioned that, while the purgatory idea is one of their favorite theories, that it's not the right one.

Keith -

I agree with just about everything you said. As far as the Hurley's ghosts being smoke monsters thing, do you think smokey has the ability to influence things like that off the island? I was under the impression that he kind of stayed on the island.

- Meg

Anonymous said...

you are fogeting 1 interesting point in that the spirit of jacob will possess the dead body of locke that rolled out of the box and it will be locke vs locke? in the final battle.

Tim said...

so does the theory of AJ being smokey mean that Hurley doesn't really see dead people from the island, but he is actually seeing AJ/Smokey in the form of his dead friendssmokey???? So he is a pawn as well? He doesn't see dead relatives or unfamiliar dead people, just dead people from the island.

Timothy said...

I saw the red herring thing, too. Interesting catch. Not much more to say about that. The show opens with a red herring and ends with an A-bomb (trigger for the H-bomb) apparently going off, with a lot of stuff in between. Good luck picking the red herring (deliberately misleading clue used as a mystery writer's device) out of that.

My first thought would be the bomb. A 100 foot drop didn't set it off but Juliette saying "son of a bitch" while banging on it with a little rock did? Maybe the red herring is the bomb, which didn't have anything to do with The Incident as we'll learn perhaps.

Sobek fits a lot of ways. He is morally ambiguous, seen sometimes as a protector and sometimes as a dangerous predator. He is associated with resurrection, through holding a ladder up (Jacob's Ladder?). He protects the dead and restores sight in the afterworld. As a creature of the Nile, which was the lifeline of Egpyt, he is associated with fertility.

If The Writers use Wikipedia as their source (to which e links)they might have read (the perhaps questionable comment that) "Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part."

Remember Jacob telling Jack the candy machine "just needed a little push?"

So Sobek fits very well indeed. Maybe the red herring relates to the ABC recapper!

I remember when Janitor Jack was washing the blackboard at Dharma Elementary, it was all about Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom. And hieroglyphics. Have to watch that again to see if there are any more clues.

Christen said...

Can I just say that the most ridiculous scene in all of LOST was when Richard was looking for the stone to smash to get into the barracks with the bomb and he was like, "now where is that obviously triangle shaped, bright white rock that doesn't look like any of the others... oh yes, right here in the spotlight, how silly of me."

Mr Solis said...

There's not only a white flash at the end of the finale but a blast sound as well, so I definitely think the bomb went off.

Probably the lostaways will flash towards 2008, and They just will disappear in 1977, that's the reason Richard Alpert said he watch them all die.

I think they cannot erase everything because it's kind of lame, and because there's a lot of stuff deliberatedly left unexplained: Annie, Hugo's guitar, etc...

But if they flash towards the future, will Sayid and Juliet be mortally wounded?

Again, Jacob and AntiJacob are not good and evil. Just two different visions of mankind: Free will against destiny. Besides, Jacob was pretty mean pretty much causing Nadia's death!

I'm just rewatching the whole series and Incidentally, there's a production error from season 3, but in one of his flashbacks Sayd was living in Paris. How come He cannot speak french on the first season?!!!!!!

I would love to see a Christian Shepard flashback ON THE ISLAND! Or what about a smokey one?

Timothy said...

Christen: I'm glad I wasn't the only one to laugh at that. I guess the main thing Richard knows is where all the Secret Passage Rocks on the island are lol.

I hope we get to see his ships-in-bottles collection he's completed in the 150 years since he stepped off the Black Rock.

Now if I can get someone to agree that Bernard was not who he appeared to be because of the stink-eye they showed him giving the departing Sawyer & Juliate I'll be happy.

I love reading the comments while waiting for e's real wrapup. Thanks, e, for making a space for your friends to talk while waiting for you to dish the goods. (I feel like I'm at the book party with Amelia Earhart waiting for Juliette to come out with the hot brownies.)

While you're waiting, it is fun to find an online anagram program and start running some of the weird names. There are some hilarious results.

Megan said...

Christen -

I'm so glad there were other people that laughed at that! I remember saying, "Oh yeah! That's right! It's the one that looks different from the others! Silly, Richard."

Mr. Solis -

Good thoughts. I agree. However, it seemed to me that Jacob was saving Sayid from getting hit by the car with Nadia. He didn't need to save Nadia, so he didn't. Maybe that's heartless but it didn't seem like he purposefully killed Nadia. Maybe I'm wrong in that. He did seem pretty mean when he told Ben, "What about you?" That's when I was convinced that he wasn't necessarily the "good" guy.

Timothy -

Man, you have made my day! Thanks for all the good thoughts!!! I know the logical side of me should say, "I'll figure out what the red herring is eventually... no need to obsess over it, now." However, the obsessed side of me (which kicks logical's ass on a regular basis) says, "No, no, no. Watch the episode AGAIN and AGAIN until you figure it out."

It's going to be an interesting season break...

Timothy said...

I don't think "what about you?" was mean. Maybe ill advised! What if Ben had been misled all along and was not in communication with the real Jacob? Or maybe that was Jacob's way of pointing out Ben's ego problems. Sadly, dont you think Ben sees this as the same way his father turned on him? Ben is honestly probbly my favorite character.

I am glad to hear TO questioned backstabbing Naomi. I never liked that scene and did not feel it was in chacter. It must be rough to be invested in a chacter on a serial drama and the writers mess you over.

Megan said...

You know, I thought about the ego thing RIGHT after I posted. I agree. Ben is ridiculously fascinating. I don't know if Ben is my favorite character, but Michael Emerson is definitely my favorite actor on the show. His Shakespearean tendencies really lend to the role. Faaaaantastic.

BBMPigBob said...

Agree with a previous poster: Thanks, e, for a place to chat!

QUESTION TO ALL: What was the significance, if any, of Bernard asking Juliette to stay for some tea?

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